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An Observation

9K views 68 replies 18 participants last post by  MikeG 
#1 ·
The ground is rather wet here so bullet strikes of small caliber are hard to distingush at distance. Shooting a 357 Mag at a water jug at 130 yards gave little to no indication of were the bullet hit, yet the 230 grain from the 45 ACP was easy to determine.
The big bores rule, there is no dought of this to those that shoot both
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
Speed penetrates steel no need for a AP bullet on 3/8" A-106 plate. A lead core hunting bullet from an 06 will penetrate it also. But even an AP bullet will not penetrate 3/8" AR-500 plate at 50 yards.

What's your point?
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
You made a conclusion based on your abservation that with a bigger splash a bigger bore rulesfor killing. I disagree with the conclusion as it relates to the observation. If you hit a puddle of water with a sledge hammer you will create a huge splash. However if you hit it with a knife, no splash.
One must conclude from your post you have concluded a big splash making caliber is best for killing. I simply do not agree with that as it is flawed science. In the same scenerio the knife in this case would be a more productive killing. agent giving all the proper variables.
Now to conclude that a bigger bore makes a bigger splash I am sure that "most" of the time that can be true. But not always Given velocity and bullet design veriables.
Don't get me wrong though. I like a big splash to. It make for a cool show.

You have made the incorrect assumption. I have made no assumption on killing power at all. I made an obesrevation and have been making observations all of my shooting life. Big bullets from handguns give more vissual indidcation of a hit. Even on animals in my experience, that is what I have observed, never mentioned killing better worse or the same nor have I assumed such
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
If you are shooting at 'plates or bottles' the 45 is great. But REAL world shooting show the proper caliber and bullet for each application will very greatly. For self defense the 125gr JHP 357 is without question the 'best of the best'.

Where do you get the 125 grainer is the best? I've shot enough Deer sized game over the years that I'm not buying into the 125 grain at all.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
I have never seen a need to 'defend' myself form deer.
The actual shootings, involving humans, have proven this thousands of times in the last 40+ years.
As stated above, the 180 gr loads are best for deer.
Animals are flesh and blood and are a good test mediumsince useing people i against the law.

The leading authority in the worldon Terminal ballistics Dr. Martin Fackler dosen't agree with you and your light bullet theory.

You make alot of claims about proof, but never provide any, much like Marshall and Saanow all made up .
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
How many people have you shot?
How many shootings, of humans, do you have FIRST HAND knowledge of?
Do as you please, when my life is on the line, as it has been many times, I will go with what has proven to be the best. And comparing 'animals' to 'humans' when choosing a self defence caliber/weapon is like comparing house cats to elephants.


Again very opinionated, but no proof and your claims are 180 degrees opposite of Dr. Martin Fackler. I think that I''ll follow Mr. Facklers work and proof and my own experiences instead of buying into lightwieghts
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
My views and Dr. Facklers are the same. I have kept up with his work and corresponded with him several times in the past. Your 'spin' on what he says is wrong. You want to make his views fit your believes. I have learned to have no preconceived 'believes', I go where the facts take me. As I said before, when I got back from RVN and became a LEO my goal was to get a 45 in every cops holster. To do this I had to have 'convincing facts'. So I too started my quest with a 'closed mind'. But the more research, testing, and experience I got I found I was WRONG.
If you wish to use 'big game' bullets on people so be it, but don't try to convice those who know better of this, incliuding DR. Fackler.

I have read and followed Dr Facklers work and no where does he advocate light for caliber bullets, no where.

In fact when the sSan Diego PD were having poor results with thier light faster bullets in he 9mm it was at Dr. Fackler's advice that they switched to the 147 grain +P.

Again you distort and miss the mark of accurate info posted.

"Bigger is alway better" is a quote of Dr. Fackler
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
You just don't get it do you????
I do not advocate 'light for caliber bullets'. I advocate using the 'best' ammo available. The words 'aways and never' have no place in the discussion. Dr. Fackler advocates using the ammunition which causes the 'bigger' permanent wound channel. Which is not 'aways' the biggest/heaviest bullet. 1-And the 357 mag 125 gr JHP is still the best or one of the best to stop an aggressive human animal.
If you want to use your 'extreme perpetrators' for self defense go for it. I DON'T CARE!2- The six or seven other people you shoot through in a crowed environment might though!!![/quote]



1- There is absolutely no evidence to support your claim

2-Police miss the intended target well over 50% and also use rifles, making your "overpenetration argument irrelelvant


Your missinformation and missrepresentation of Dr. Facklers views and quotes are well documented on the forum
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
1. There are thousands of well document shootings to verify this. I have personally witnessed several. But if you wish to disregard the obvious that is your right.
2. In a 'crowed environment' police and other have injured and killed other people.
You did not answer my question!! How much experience, first hand, do you have with shootings involving humans??????
As I said, "Do as you please". Nuff said.
Have a nice day.:rolleyes:


1- Where is this documentation that 125 grain 357 is the best?

2- True, but what does this fact have to do with shooting through the bad guy?
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
I have given you the information I have obtained from 50+ years of training, experience, research, and testing. If you feel I am not credible and you know better so be it. As I keep saying, DO AS YOU PLEASE and please stop trying to argue with me!!!
Have a nice day.


You have provided no proof, where is the proof.

If you donot wish to respond then don't
 
Discussion starter · #42 ·
Mike,
I did, but these kids just keep pestering!!;)
:eek:


No one is pestering you and I am not a kid, I am 59 this month. You made a definitive blanket statement and were asked "what prove do you have to backup your postion".
 
Discussion starter · #44 ·
There is no crediable scientific data available that shows the 125 grain 357 mag as "the best of the best" for a self defense load in the 357.
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
Interesting passage from the Duncan MacPherson book, pages 142-143 of BULLET PENETRATION, Chapter 7, Bullet Expansion Analysis and Testing:

Effect of Sectional Density

"An increase in initial (undeformed) bullet sectional density will cause equivalent expansion at lower velocity. Greater expansion occurs at the same velocity because the decelerating forces must act for a larger time interval to reduce the bullet velocity (the decelerating force and the stagnation pressure causing deformation are highly correlated). This effect can also be quantified analytically in principle, but is complex because equal bullet distortion requires an equal force integral over position (of the distorted bullet surface), whereas a changed sectional density changes the force integral over time. The relationship between distorted bullet surface position and time is difficult to model. A very crude analysis shows that a 20% increase in sectional density would lower the velocity for equivalent expansion by 5%. ...
... More extensive testing is required for reliable quantification, but this was not done as part of this study, and no such test results by others are known to the author."
 
Discussion starter · #51 ·
Well I hope you can find enough 'hungry' people who will allow you pay them to be apart of your 'study' so you can shoot them and get your 'scientific data'!
Good luck!!!;)


Of course the scientific data that is available is from the work of Dr. Martin Fackler an the light weights do not stand ahead of the heavier better penetrating bullets

do as you please and good luck
 
Discussion starter · #58 · (Edited)
Wrong! The COMBINATION of expansion and penetration are BOTH REQUIRED to have the most effective terminal performance. A football shaped permanent wound cavity with penetration of 15 inches (some say as little as 12 inches) is what will cause the most tissue damage, and thus the highest probability of blood loss and 'stop' the fight quicker.
AND ALL OF THE MODERN CALIBERS ARE ABOUT THE SAME WITH THE BEST AMMNITION!

All credible evidence points to bigger is better. The FBI, LAPD SWAT and other elite units with in the LAPD, the Louisana State Police as well as other agencies have all gone bigger (45 ACP with 230 grain expanding bullets).

Many used the 357 mag as well as the high pressure 9mm loads for years and after those years of experience they have switched to heavier larger diameter slugs for improved stoping ability.
 
Discussion starter · #61 ·
Strange thing about academics, it's always changing, it's called learning. Just because it was the best years ago, doesn't mean that they haven't discovered otherwise. Big lead, big hole. Gun fights are almost always CQB and within 21ft. I know what I will use if when it comes to a sidearm.


Well stated...
 
Discussion starter · #62 ·
This is all ACADEMIC!! These same people told us the 147 gr sub-sonic 9mm loads were the 'best'.
IF YOU USE THE BEST AMMO IN A 9, 357 (SIG OR MAG), 40, OR 45 THEY ARE ALL ABOUT (REALISTICLY) THE SAME IF PLACED PROPERLY.
To each his own. Do you like to argue just to argue????


Ah, but what is the best ammo for each? According to you it's light for caliber projectiles.

Fact, a heavier bullet that expands the same as a light bullet will penetrate deeper.

Fact, often times thier are barries (car dooors, wiindshield, etc) that the projectile must penetrate inorder to reach it's objective. Heavier bullets do this better than light for caliber bullets.

Fact, the San DIego PD switch from the the lighter +P 9mm bullets to the 147 grain +P bullets and lessened the number of hits required per bad guy.

Fact hollow points donot always expand and a non expanding 45 caliber is going to produce a larger wound chanel than a non expanding bullet that is only .355 or.357 inches in diameter
 
Discussion starter · #65 ·
You do like to just argue for the sake of argument don't you?
I know from experience, research and testing what works best. You are still 'looking' for the answer! Have fun in your quest, I did.


Personaly I'm not that sure of your credibility. No I am not looking for the answer I fairly well have it. I don't realy think that you do though
 
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