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I think a .357cal. 180gr. WFNGC at 1100fps impact velocity will kill a deer just as dead as a .44cal. 250gr. WFNGC at 1100fps. Double shoulder shot...How dead is dead? If we throw in a 300 WinMag, maybe we should talk about edible meat? Grenade affect? To each our own. May the new year bring you good cheer and good fortune. Hi Marshall!!!
Terry
There is slightly dead, moderately dead, and then there is REALLY dead. 45's make things REALLY dead....lol.
 
How many people have you shot?
How many shootings, of humans, do you have FIRST HAND knowledge of?
Do as you please, when my life is on the line, as it has been many times, I will go with what has proven to be the best. And comparing 'animals' to 'humans' when choosing a self defence caliber/weapon is like comparing house cats to elephants.
I have to disagree, sorry. If anything wild animals have more drive to live than most humans. Unless of course they are under the influence of a drug, and in those instances a human can be surprisingly comparable.
 
Jim R.,

Just live and let live. You are not the font of all wound ballistics knowledge, either. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
How many people have you shot?
How many shootings, of humans, do you have FIRST HAND knowledge of?
Do as you please, when my life is on the line, as it has been many times, I will go with what has proven to be the best. And comparing 'animals' to 'humans' when choosing a self defence caliber/weapon is like comparing house cats to elephants.


Again very opinionated, but no proof and your claims are 180 degrees opposite of Dr. Martin Fackler. I think that I''ll follow Mr. Facklers work and proof and my own experiences instead of buying into lightwieghts
 
I have to disagree, sorry. If anything wild animals have more drive to live than most humans. Unless of course they are under the influence of a drug, and in those instances a human can be surprisingly comparable.
Physically there very few if any 'animals' that are close to the human animal. But you did touch on one of the things which make the human much different than the others. His physiological make up.
 
Jim R.,

Just live and let live. You are not the font of all wound ballistics knowledge, either. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Mike,
If you will notice I said "Do as you please". If people do not consider me creditable that is their loss not mine. I am simply trying to give the 'good' people on this site the benefit of 50+ years of experience, research, and testing. The only way to reduce ignorance it through education.
Life is nothing more than a series of decisions. I have seen first hand what happens if people make the wrong decisions. So as I said, "Do as your please". If you make the wrong decision you pay the price. My problem is I care about people and hate to see them make the wrong decisions, especially when it can cost them their life.
Jim
 
Again very opinionated, but no proof and your claims are 180 degrees opposite of Dr. Martin Fackler. I think that I''ll follow Mr. Facklers work and proof and my own experiences instead of buying into lightwieghts
My views and Dr. Facklers are the same. I have kept up with his work and corresponded with him several times in the past. Your 'spin' on what he says is wrong. You want to make his views fit your believes. I have learned to have no preconceived 'believes', I go where the facts take me. As I said before, when I got back from RVN and became a LEO my goal was to get a 45 in every cops holster. To do this I had to have 'convincing facts'. So I too started my quest with a 'closed mind'. But the more research, testing, and experience I got I found I was WRONG.
If you wish to use 'big game' bullets on people so be it, but don't try to convice those who know better of this, incliuding DR. Fackler.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
My views and Dr. Facklers are the same. I have kept up with his work and corresponded with him several times in the past. Your 'spin' on what he says is wrong. You want to make his views fit your believes. I have learned to have no preconceived 'believes', I go where the facts take me. As I said before, when I got back from RVN and became a LEO my goal was to get a 45 in every cops holster. To do this I had to have 'convincing facts'. So I too started my quest with a 'closed mind'. But the more research, testing, and experience I got I found I was WRONG.
If you wish to use 'big game' bullets on people so be it, but don't try to convice those who know better of this, incliuding DR. Fackler.

I have read and followed Dr Facklers work and no where does he advocate light for caliber bullets, no where.

In fact when the sSan Diego PD were having poor results with thier light faster bullets in he 9mm it was at Dr. Fackler's advice that they switched to the 147 grain +P.

Again you distort and miss the mark of accurate info posted.

"Bigger is alway better" is a quote of Dr. Fackler
 
I have read and followed Dr Facklers work and no where does he advocate light for caliber bullets, no where.

In fact when the sSan Diego PD were having poor results with thier light faster bullets in he 9mm it was at Dr. Fackler's advice that they switched to the 147 grain +P.

Again you distort and miss the mark of accurate info posted.

"Bigger is alway better" is a quote of Dr. Fackler
You just don't get it do you????
I do not advocate 'light for caliber bullets'. I advocate using the 'best' ammo available. The words 'aways and never' have no place in the discussion. Dr. Fackler advocates using the ammunition which causes the 'bigger' permanent wound channel. Which is not 'aways' the biggest/heaviest bullet. And the 357 mag 125 gr JHP is still the best or one of the best to stop an aggressive human animal.
If you want to use your 'extreme perpetrators' for self defense go for it. I DON'T CARE! The six or seven other people you shoot through in a crowed environment might though!!!
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
You just don't get it do you????
I do not advocate 'light for caliber bullets'. I advocate using the 'best' ammo available. The words 'aways and never' have no place in the discussion. Dr. Fackler advocates using the ammunition which causes the 'bigger' permanent wound channel. Which is not 'aways' the biggest/heaviest bullet. 1-And the 357 mag 125 gr JHP is still the best or one of the best to stop an aggressive human animal.
If you want to use your 'extreme perpetrators' for self defense go for it. I DON'T CARE!2- The six or seven other people you shoot through in a crowed environment might though!!![/quote]



1- There is absolutely no evidence to support your claim

2-Police miss the intended target well over 50% and also use rifles, making your "overpenetration argument irrelelvant


Your missinformation and missrepresentation of Dr. Facklers views and quotes are well documented on the forum
 
You just don't get it do you????
I do not advocate 'light for caliber bullets'. I advocate using the 'best' ammo available. The words 'aways and never' have no place in the discussion. Dr. Fackler advocates using the ammunition which causes the 'bigger' permanent wound channel. Which is not 'aways' the biggest/heaviest bullet. 1-And the 357 mag 125 gr JHP is still the best or one of the best to stop an aggressive human animal.
If you want to use your 'extreme perpetrators' for self defense go for it. I DON'T CARE!2- The six or seven other people you shoot through in a crowed environment might though!!![/quote]



1- There is absolutely no evidence to support your claim

2-Police miss the intended target well over 50% and also use rifles, making your "overpenetration argument irrelelvant


Your missinformation and missrepresentation of Dr. Facklers views and quotes are well documented on the forum
1. There are thousands of well document shootings to verify this. I have personally witnessed several. But if you wish to disregard the obvious that is your right.
2. In a 'crowed environment' police and other have injured and killed other people.
You did not answer my question!! How much experience, first hand, do you have with shootings involving humans??????
As I said, "Do as you please". Nuff said.
Have a nice day.:rolleyes:
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
1. There are thousands of well document shootings to verify this. I have personally witnessed several. But if you wish to disregard the obvious that is your right.
2. In a 'crowed environment' police and other have injured and killed other people.
You did not answer my question!! How much experience, first hand, do you have with shootings involving humans??????
As I said, "Do as you please". Nuff said.
Have a nice day.:rolleyes:


1- Where is this documentation that 125 grain 357 is the best?

2- True, but what does this fact have to do with shooting through the bad guy?
 
1- Where is this documentation that 125 grain 357 is the best?

2- True, but what does this fact have to do with shooting through the bad guy?
I have given you the information I have obtained from 50+ years of training, experience, research, and testing. If you feel I am not credible and you know better so be it. As I keep saying, DO AS YOU PLEASE and please stop trying to argue with me!!!
Have a nice day.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
I have given you the information I have obtained from 50+ years of training, experience, research, and testing. If you feel I am not credible and you know better so be it. As I keep saying, DO AS YOU PLEASE and please stop trying to argue with me!!!
Have a nice day.


You have provided no proof, where is the proof.

If you donot wish to respond then don't
 
You have provided no proof, where is the proof.

If you donot wish to respond then don't
I am so tired of 'beating this dead horse'! I do not have time or inclination to get in a 'discussion' about this AGAIN!!!
I have all the proof I need. If you consider me not credible I will not loose one wink of sleep. DO AS YOU PLEASE!
 
I am so tired of 'beating this dead horse'! I do not have time or inclination to get in a 'discussion' about this AGAIN!!!
I have all the proof I need. If you consider me not credible I will not loose one wink of sleep. DO AS YOU PLEASE!
Well maybe if you actually provided some evidence, jwp would back off. But, you made this definitive statemet about the 125 grain .357 as being the "best of the best" and you didn't cite your sources. Now, if your source is Marshall and Sanow -- and I suspect it is, your claim is not credible. There are many options for one shot handgun stops better than a lightweight .357, and the .45 in many iterations is one of them. Handgun catridges like the .44 magnum haven't faired well statistically, because so few people can shoot them well, not because the .44 is somehow inferior to the .357. Oh, and I have put my backside on the line on many occasions.

I also think that shooting game animals with handguns gives you a much better perspective on the effectiveness of cratridges/bullets/loads/etc. than punching paper at the range. Do you hunt with a handgun, Jim? Just curious.
 
Mike,
I did, but these kids just keep pestering!!;)
It is just human nature rearing it's ugly head. I did the same thing. Someone with more experience than I advises me and still have to go out and make the same mistakes he did and those who came before him!!!:eek:
 
Mike,
I did, but these kids just keep pestering!!;)
It is just human nature rearing it's ugly head. I did the same thing. Someone with more experience than I advises me and still have to go out and make the same mistakes he did and those who came before him!!!:eek:
Jim, you were merely asked to cite your sources after your definitive statement about the .357 being number one, and you failed to do so. I'm not being combative, just calling your hand.
 
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