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Discussion starter · #42 ·
Mike,
I did, but these kids just keep pestering!!;)
:eek:


No one is pestering you and I am not a kid, I am 59 this month. You made a definitive blanket statement and were asked "what prove do you have to backup your postion".
 
475,
I did state my my sources of this info. I have done my own research, testing, and reviewed many others data and research, PLUS I have witnessed first hand or investigated MANY shootings.
I am the source, if you do not find my information creditable so be it.;)
 
Discussion starter · #44 ·
There is no crediable scientific data available that shows the 125 grain 357 mag as "the best of the best" for a self defense load in the 357.
 
I think a 12 ga shotgun with slugs would be best against deer and with 00 buck best against a man.
And nothing bigger than that in my neck of the woods
Make my only gun a 12 ga
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
Interesting passage from the Duncan MacPherson book, pages 142-143 of BULLET PENETRATION, Chapter 7, Bullet Expansion Analysis and Testing:

Effect of Sectional Density

"An increase in initial (undeformed) bullet sectional density will cause equivalent expansion at lower velocity. Greater expansion occurs at the same velocity because the decelerating forces must act for a larger time interval to reduce the bullet velocity (the decelerating force and the stagnation pressure causing deformation are highly correlated). This effect can also be quantified analytically in principle, but is complex because equal bullet distortion requires an equal force integral over position (of the distorted bullet surface), whereas a changed sectional density changes the force integral over time. The relationship between distorted bullet surface position and time is difficult to model. A very crude analysis shows that a 20% increase in sectional density would lower the velocity for equivalent expansion by 5%. ...
... More extensive testing is required for reliable quantification, but this was not done as part of this study, and no such test results by others are known to the author."
 
What does it matter? They all work... percentages and calculations only apply to scientific studies. Bodies don't care, criminals don't care, guns don't care.
 
absolutly..its what happens ..not what somebody says might happen..you the one thats gotta make it happen ,,with your choice of weapon.. that puts the responcibility,, dead on your shoulders ..be the results good or bad..when that time comes ,,no time for argueing,this or that.. jmo slim
 
There is no crediable scientific data available that shows the 125 grain 357 mag as "the best of the best" for a self defense load in the 357.
Well I hope you can find enough 'hungry' people who will allow you pay them to be apart of your 'study' so you can shoot them and get your 'scientific data'!
Good luck!!!;)
 
Well

How many people have you shot?
How many shootings, of humans, do you have FIRST HAND knowledge of?
Do as you please, when my life is on the line, as it has been many times, I will go with what has proven to be the best. And comparing 'animals' to 'humans' when choosing a self defence caliber/weapon is like comparing house cats to elephants.
WOW .22lr are great for head shoots and kill lots of people/cows/deer easily. Thats why in the mob we use them! I like big bullets too, this is kinda funny we always have this talk here about every year or two!:D
 
Discussion starter · #51 ·
Well I hope you can find enough 'hungry' people who will allow you pay them to be apart of your 'study' so you can shoot them and get your 'scientific data'!
Good luck!!!;)


Of course the scientific data that is available is from the work of Dr. Martin Fackler an the light weights do not stand ahead of the heavier better penetrating bullets

do as you please and good luck
 
Of course the scientific data that is available is from the work of Dr. Martin Fackler an the light weights do not stand ahead of the heavier better penetrating bullets

do as you please and good luck
Thank you,
In all probability you will never need to shoot anyone (Thank God). Most of the people I have had to shoot were in a military situation and we were REQUIRED to use FMJ bullets, which are not relevant here, but the others I shoot were with a shotgun in a police situation. But I have been involved in this 'stopping ability' quest for over 40 years FIRST HAND so, as I said, I am the source. And, Fackler and I are an the same sheet of music, the bullet which causes the 'largest' (long and wide) permanent wound channel is the best 'stopper'.
Have a good day,
Jim
 
Thank you,
In all probability you will never need to shoot anyone (Thank God). Most of the people I have had to shoot were in a military situation and we were REQUIRED to use FMJ bullets, which are not relevant here, but the others I shoot were with a shotgun in a police situation. But I have been involved in this 'stopping ability' quest for over 40 years FIRST HAND so, as I said, I am the source. And, Fackler and I are an the same sheet of music, the bullet which causes the 'largest' (long and wide) permanent wound channel is the best 'stopper'.
Have a good day,
Jim

Which means the .357 -- even with expanding bullets is probably not the best choice with other options like the 10mm and .45 acp. If one was to use a .357, they would probably be better served with a heavier expanding bullet than a 125 grainer -- more weight carriers more momentum and all else being equal, it will penetrate deeper and take care of the second part of your equation -- the long part of the wound channel.
 
You know we have a lot of information going back and forth concerning penetration. There are facts and reality.

The Freeway Shooter about 5 years ago or so in the Columbus, Ohio area, was shooting great distances, bullet when thru the driver side door of a car and killed the passenger. In an older school with mesh in glass stuff in the windows, a bullet went thru the glass and continued on in pretty much a straight line and when into a wall that was some kind of concrete type plaster.

This was a 9mm Handgun shooting FMJ military style ammo. Some shoots were aimed and hit their targets and some were misses and travel on sometimes great distance end up in a wall somewhere. One country dweller heard something hit is siding, but never heard any report from a fire arm. That bullet when thru his outside wall and lodged in an inside wall.

Some of these shoots were a few hundred feet to the target, some of the places where bullets went thru walls were a couple of miles.

This was FMJ ammo in a 9mm pistoi. The Guy was a mental case and his father turned him While the perp was in Vegas, his picture was on TV or in a newspaper and he was caught.

You can teach me all the science, but sometimes reality is easier to understand.

Jerry
 
Which means the .357 -- even with expanding bullets is probably not the best choice with other options like the 10mm and .45 acp. If one was to use a .357, they would probably be better served with a heavier expanding bullet than a 125 grainer -- more weight carriers more momentum and all else being equal, it will penetrate deeper and take care of the second part of your equation -- the long part of the wound channel.
Wrong! The COMBINATION of expansion and penetration are BOTH REQUIRED to have the most effective terminal performance. A football shaped permanent wound cavity with penetration of 15 inches (some say as little as 12 inches) is what will cause the most tissue damage, and thus the highest probability of blood loss and 'stop' the fight quicker.
AND ALL OF THE MODERN CALIBERS ARE ABOUT THE SAME WITH THE BEST AMMNITION!
 
Wrong! The COMBINATION of expansion and penetration are BOTH REQUIRED to have the most effective terminal performance. A football shaped permanent wound cavity with penetration of 15 inches (some say as little as 12 inches) is what will cause the most tissue damage, and thus the highest probability of blood loss and 'stop' the fight quicker.
AND ALL OF THE MODERN CALIBERS ARE ABOUT THE SAME WITH THE BEST AMMNITION!
No kidding -- but heavier bullets, generally speaking, penetrate deeper. If you have the same expansion with a 125 as you do a 158, the heavier bullet will go deeper. All calibers certainly aren't the same with premium ammo -- that is just absurd. By your logic, a .380 with premium ammo is just as effective as a 10mm. It sounds to me like you are trying to rationalize your inability to shoot the bigger calibers. No offense meant if that isn't the case.

I have a question for you, Jim. If all "modern" calibers are about equal, why is it that so many departments and agencies have moved to the .40 over the 9mm? Many agencies have also moved to the .45. Guess they're not equal.
 
I enjoy shooting the 1911s and other 45 ACP pistols, but I have several other like 9mm, 357 Magnums and one 380, these are what I would use against people or similar sized things if confronted.

Just my experience a military 45 ACP is going to give me a lot of protection at close range, where a 9mm may do the same amount of damage, but the 9mm could penetrate thru.

My carry pistol is a S&W 340 PD which I carry 38 Special +P Hydr A Shoks in. My Sig P220 is less brutal on my hands than the 340 PD, but it is also harder for me to carry concealed.

Jerry
 
Discussion starter · #58 · (Edited)
Wrong! The COMBINATION of expansion and penetration are BOTH REQUIRED to have the most effective terminal performance. A football shaped permanent wound cavity with penetration of 15 inches (some say as little as 12 inches) is what will cause the most tissue damage, and thus the highest probability of blood loss and 'stop' the fight quicker.
AND ALL OF THE MODERN CALIBERS ARE ABOUT THE SAME WITH THE BEST AMMNITION!

All credible evidence points to bigger is better. The FBI, LAPD SWAT and other elite units with in the LAPD, the Louisana State Police as well as other agencies have all gone bigger (45 ACP with 230 grain expanding bullets).

Many used the 357 mag as well as the high pressure 9mm loads for years and after those years of experience they have switched to heavier larger diameter slugs for improved stoping ability.
 
All credible evidence points to bigger is better. The FBI, LAPD SWAT and other elite units with in the LAPD, the Louisana State Police as well as other agencies have all gone bigger (45 ACP with 230 grain expanding bullets).

Many used the 357 mag as well as the high pressure 9mm loads for years and after those years of experience they have switched to heavier larger diameter slugs for improved stoping ability.
This is all ACADEMIC!! These same people told us the 147 gr sub-sonic 9mm loads were the 'best'.
IF YOU USE THE BEST AMMO IN A 9, 357 (SIG OR MAG), 40, OR 45 THEY ARE ALL ABOUT (REALISTICLY) THE SAME IF PLACED PROPERLY.
To each his own. Do you like to argue just to argue????
 
This is all ACADEMIC!! These same people told us the 147 gr sub-sonic 9mm loads were the 'best'.
IF YOU USE THE BEST AMMO IN A 9, 357 (SIG OR MAG), 40, OR 45 THEY ARE ALL ABOUT (REALISTICLY) THE SAME IF PLACED PROPERLY.
To each his own. Do you like to argue just to argue????
Strange thing about academics, it's always changing, it's called learning. Just because it was the best years ago, doesn't mean that they haven't discovered otherwise. Big lead, big hole. Gun fights are almost always CQB and within 21ft. I know what I will use if when it comes to a sidearm.
 
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