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An Observation

9K views 68 replies 18 participants last post by  MikeG 
#1 ·
The ground is rather wet here so bullet strikes of small caliber are hard to distingush at distance. Shooting a 357 Mag at a water jug at 130 yards gave little to no indication of were the bullet hit, yet the 230 grain from the 45 ACP was easy to determine.
The big bores rule, there is no dought of this to those that shoot both
 
#4 ·
A 30 caliber AP bullet hitting an iron plate at a thickness of 3/8-inch from a distance of 50 yards will hardly move tha plate. However a 45 caliber at the same distance will make it dance as though hit by a Mac truck.
The differance though is that although the 45 seemed to leave the impression it hit hard and thus would be the better choice it only chipped the paint and was pretty much a fail.
The 30 caliber however went clean through and would in this case was the better round.
Don't be fooled by big splash vodoo. But your observation was accurate.
I just don't agree with the conclusion in this case.
 
#10 ·
If you are shooting at 'plates or bottles' the 45 is great. But REAL world shooting show the proper caliber and bullet for each application will very greatly. For self defense the 125gr JHP 357 is without question the 'best of the best'.
 
#11 ·
If you are shooting at 'plates or bottles' the 45 is great. But REAL world shooting show the proper caliber and bullet for each application will very greatly. For self defense the 125gr JHP 357 is without question the 'best of the best'.

Where do you get the 125 grainer is the best? I've shot enough Deer sized game over the years that I'm not buying into the 125 grain at all.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Where do you get the 125 grainer is the best? I've shot enough Deer sized game over the years that I'm not buying into the 125 grain at all.
I have never seen a need to 'defend' myself form deer.
The actual shootings, involving humans, have proven this thousands of times in the last 40+ years.
As stated above, the 180 gr loads are best for deer.
 
#5 ·
Think it might be more simple than that. To make that puff of dirt, the bullet pretty much has to contact it (what happens below ground isn't visible)...and bigger diameter bullets contact more dirt.
----
Way back when the Detonics compact .45's were new, bought one of the first ones. Shot well, carried it for years. Eventally was rifle plinking at targets in a gravel pit out at 150-175 yards and broke out that stub-barrel concealment Detonics. Might have been lobbing those 230gr. FMJ's at 700-710fps, and to walk it onto targets (and it was a BIG target for those of you who remember the tiny sight radius of those pistols), felt like I was forward observer for indirect 155 fire.

Even out at 175yards, with the bullets seeming to arch straight down into the sand, could see the dirt splashes bare-eyed.
 
#6 ·
Speed penetrates steel no need for a AP bullet on 3/8" A-106 plate. A lead core hunting bullet from an 06 will penetrate it also. But even an AP bullet will not penetrate 3/8" AR-500 plate at 50 yards.

What's your point?
 
#7 ·
You made a conclusion based on your abservation that with a bigger splash a bigger bore rulesfor killing. I disagree with the conclusion as it relates to the observation. If you hit a puddle of water with a sledge hammer you will create a huge splash. However if you hit it with a knife, no splash.
One must conclude from your post you have concluded a big splash making caliber is best for killing. I simply do not agree with that as it is flawed science. In the same scenerio the knife in this case would be a more productive killing. agent giving all the proper variables.
Now to conclude that a bigger bore makes a bigger splash I am sure that "most" of the time that can be true. But not always Given velocity and bullet design veriables.
Don't get me wrong though. I like a big splash to. It make for a cool show.
 
#9 ·
You have made the incorrect assumption. I have made no assumption on killing power at all. I made an obesrevation and have been making observations all of my shooting life. Big bullets from handguns give more vissual indidcation of a hit. Even on animals in my experience, that is what I have observed, never mentioned killing better worse or the same nor have I assumed such
 
#8 ·
This is a rather odd resumption of the age-old argument between slow, heavy bullets, with greater frontal area, and fast, lighter bullets, with better penetration characteristics. To emphatically conclude this argument, I ask that you contemplate the following question:

Would you rather get hit with a 12-gauge shotgun slug at 1400fps, or a 55gr .223 Remington bullet, at 3250fps? At any range for which either is appropriate, and presuming a center-of-mass hit, I think the answer is patently obvious. The old saying is that speed kills, but when something really big is going fast enough, that's going to kill much better than something tiny, going really fast!
 
#12 ·
Would that be a European swallow, or African swallow? ;)

With all due respect, Jim Rau, when you make a statement like that, you really need to be prepared to offer SOME kind of proof, or at least qualification. Refuting conventional wisdom without backing it up, in some way, doesn't reflect well on your "opinion".
 
#13 ·
Jim Rau are you kidding?Have you ever seen or used that round on a live human being?Have you ever seen anyone hit with a 357sig,40,9mm,or a 45,357 w 158gr ammo,38sp anything?How can you say that caliber and load is the "best of the best" for self defense?I have been unfortunate enough to see the effects of several and my opinion is a 45 is about the worst on the recievers end.
 
#14 ·
And yes jwp475 I do agree bigger calibers show more visible sign.While doing some longer range shooting in Wyoming this past October with a friend three calibers were shot,the 44,45colt and 475L.There was a very noticeble difference in being able to see the bullet impacts on the hillside.When the wind picked up it eliminated being able to even see the dust from the impacts of the 44 &45,but the 475L continued to show us where we were hitting.So in my observations also you are correct.
 
#17 ·
I think a .357cal. 180gr. WFNGC at 1100fps impact velocity will kill a deer just as dead as a .44cal. 250gr. WFNGC at 1100fps. Double shoulder shot...How dead is dead? If we throw in a 300 WinMag, maybe we should talk about edible meat? Grenade affect? To each our own. May the new year bring you good cheer and good fortune. Hi Marshall!!!
Terry
 
#26 ·
Jim R.,

Just live and let live. You are not the font of all wound ballistics knowledge, either. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Mike,
If you will notice I said "Do as you please". If people do not consider me creditable that is their loss not mine. I am simply trying to give the 'good' people on this site the benefit of 50+ years of experience, research, and testing. The only way to reduce ignorance it through education.
Life is nothing more than a series of decisions. I have seen first hand what happens if people make the wrong decisions. So as I said, "Do as your please". If you make the wrong decision you pay the price. My problem is I care about people and hate to see them make the wrong decisions, especially when it can cost them their life.
Jim
 
#39 ·
Mike,
I did, but these kids just keep pestering!!;)
It is just human nature rearing it's ugly head. I did the same thing. Someone with more experience than I advises me and still have to go out and make the same mistakes he did and those who came before him!!!:eek:
 
#43 ·
475,
I did state my my sources of this info. I have done my own research, testing, and reviewed many others data and research, PLUS I have witnessed first hand or investigated MANY shootings.
I am the source, if you do not find my information creditable so be it.;)
 
#44 ·
There is no crediable scientific data available that shows the 125 grain 357 mag as "the best of the best" for a self defense load in the 357.
 
#46 ·
Interesting passage from the Duncan MacPherson book, pages 142-143 of BULLET PENETRATION, Chapter 7, Bullet Expansion Analysis and Testing:

Effect of Sectional Density

"An increase in initial (undeformed) bullet sectional density will cause equivalent expansion at lower velocity. Greater expansion occurs at the same velocity because the decelerating forces must act for a larger time interval to reduce the bullet velocity (the decelerating force and the stagnation pressure causing deformation are highly correlated). This effect can also be quantified analytically in principle, but is complex because equal bullet distortion requires an equal force integral over position (of the distorted bullet surface), whereas a changed sectional density changes the force integral over time. The relationship between distorted bullet surface position and time is difficult to model. A very crude analysis shows that a 20% increase in sectional density would lower the velocity for equivalent expansion by 5%. ...
... More extensive testing is required for reliable quantification, but this was not done as part of this study, and no such test results by others are known to the author."
 
#48 ·
absolutly..its what happens ..not what somebody says might happen..you the one thats gotta make it happen ,,with your choice of weapon.. that puts the responcibility,, dead on your shoulders ..be the results good or bad..when that time comes ,,no time for argueing,this or that.. jmo slim
 
#54 · (Edited)
You know we have a lot of information going back and forth concerning penetration. There are facts and reality.

The Freeway Shooter about 5 years ago or so in the Columbus, Ohio area, was shooting great distances, bullet when thru the driver side door of a car and killed the passenger. In an older school with mesh in glass stuff in the windows, a bullet went thru the glass and continued on in pretty much a straight line and when into a wall that was some kind of concrete type plaster.

This was a 9mm Handgun shooting FMJ military style ammo. Some shoots were aimed and hit their targets and some were misses and travel on sometimes great distance end up in a wall somewhere. One country dweller heard something hit is siding, but never heard any report from a fire arm. That bullet when thru his outside wall and lodged in an inside wall.

Some of these shoots were a few hundred feet to the target, some of the places where bullets went thru walls were a couple of miles.

This was FMJ ammo in a 9mm pistoi. The Guy was a mental case and his father turned him While the perp was in Vegas, his picture was on TV or in a newspaper and he was caught.

You can teach me all the science, but sometimes reality is easier to understand.

Jerry
 
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