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Discussion Starter #1
It is not being paranoid, when I say we should consider the possibilty that this webpage, as well as others, may be invaded by Anti-gun moles. It is a very smart move on their part! As any webpage forum becomes popular, as this one has, there is an open invitation for them to make a move.
Their methods would include causing open agitation over controversal issues, thereby spliting our uniform group. "Divide and Conquer" works now as in the past. The old saying, " If you can't reach them with reason, then baffle them with bul***it"
We all have agreed to disagree, but I warn you that they will take emotional disputes and use them to accomlish there goals! There were many times, while working for the firearms industry, I disagreed with management. The only reason I survived was due to the fact, I made them money.
Over the past 40 years, involved directly and indirectly, I have seen serious changes in the gun and ammo industries. Most, if not all, anti-gun laws were passed after an emotional crisis. A good example was the Gun Control Law of 1968, following the Kennedy, King, Kennedy killings. Who profited most from curtailing the sales of surplus firearms?....of course the domestic manufacturers!
They all have blood on their hands on that one.
Since the WWW has grown to the size it has, it has become a stage for all types of propaganda. Someone has only to hide behind an alias, invade the gun and ammo forums, and go to work stirring up emotions. This post is not aimed at any person or subject. However, if the shoe fits.....!
I will not support any measure that the results profit the anti-gun crowd. That is simply cutting of your nose to spite your face. I feel a calm collective approach to the emotional issue of today is called for. And above all, that the results are not what will cause future problems. The Anti's are very well financed and will use all means to damage our solidarity. They know our weak and strong points better than we know theirs.
We must be vigilant in spotting their inroads and not fall into the traps they have set.
If my ideas are not acceptable to the Stantons, the moderaters, and the forum in general....I will gladly remove my person from your presence. Who wins is up to your decision.
Best Regards, James
 

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You make some good points.  Permit me to add a few thoughts.  Having done infiltration of leftist groups back in my college days (before I became too well-known on campus to get away with such hijinks) I can say it is quite easy.  All you have to do is show up and pretend to agree with the group's agenda, whatever it may be.  On the web it is all too easy.  One of our regulars could be Josh Sugarman using another identity for all we could know.
We need to remember that, whatever the disagreement on the finer points of the issue, it is the shooting sport that unites us.  I would draw a corrollary from one of my other interests, auto racing.  People may think that Jeff Gordon is the greatest thing since sliced bread or the antichrist, but deep down they are all race fans.  Most all of us here love guns and hunting, which makes it easy to get very partial about our own way of doing things.  The antis have it easier in that regard.  They all agree guns are evil, so therefore the only debate is about how to get rid of them.  Against them we must all stay united.  For example,I personally have no practical use for a .50 BMG rifle, but if the antis succeed in banning them they WILL be after something else next.  Therefore I will defend the legal use of the .50 to the utmost of my ability.  Otherwise, sooner or later, they will be coming after stuff I do have.
It's perfectly Ok to disagree about the finer points of the whole sport, but we all need to remember that we are all shooters.  Therefore we all really do need to be civil with one another.
Good shooting
Mark
 

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James,
    I am in agreement with you reguarding the moles.
And in particular the use of an emotional issue to cause division between gun owners.
    To set this post up let me elaborate a bit.
I am one of those who are boycotting S&W.  For three reasons.  
First:  Because of the decisions made by the British owners to enter into the agreement.  
Second:  Because their current owners are retrofitting one of the safest revolver designs with STUPIDLY thought out unnecessary safety gadgets.  The liability issue is a fraud in my opinion.
Third:  Because the current management are taking a passive path towards extracating S&W from this agreement.
    A week ago I started a thread in another shooting forum reguarding this question:  Has anyone ever worn out a GP100?  I got many responces from people who wanted to discuss the issue.  Then one person who had not been heretofore involved in the thread came in and attempted to start a flame against me because I mentioned my stand on the S&W issue.  He used many inflamatory comments against me personally, based on how I was causing a great American Co. to fail and supporting the Anti-gunners, ect.  None of which has any merit whatsoever.
I would not be baited and politely asked him not to ruin the thread.  He tried a second time.  Fortunatily none of the other posters acknowleged him.  And he stopped posting.  
    I believe his intentions were to cause a lot of disention amonst those of us on the forum.  At least this time it didn't work.  
    James, I still believe that we as consumers have only ONE way to tell a manufacturer of ANY product, guns or otherwise that we don't agree with their decisions and actions.  That is a boycott.  As long as their products are selling most manufacturers will not listen to letters, phone calls, or email.  
    In all my postings, and conversations with people, I have stated that this is MY stand and told them why.  Then I have stated that I am not telling them to do the same.  If they want to support S&W, feel free to do so.  I do not.  That is the American way.  That is MY RIGHT to choose.  
    I do not flame people for supporting S&W.  I do however get very agravated when people continue to use the "emotional" argument about how I as a boycotter am causing untold harm to the gun industry because of my stand.  Bull crap!
    Companys have risen because they filled a need or want for the buying public, and they have fallen because they stopped filling this for whatever reason.
    There is not one bit of a shread of common sense to this S&W issue.
    One more comment.  I do not support Ruger or Winchester or Colt or S&W because of blind loyalty.  I do or don't buy a product on the basis on wheather or not it will serve the purpose I have for it.
    When the 68 gun law was passed the people had every chance to remove the lawmakers who passed it the next elections.  They did not.  This showed the antis that the public were sheep.  They did'nt get the law repealed, they continued to support gun makers who supported the law and still do.
    I also believe that the American Sheeple will be disarmed within the next 10 years.  The current administration is doing little to UNdo the damage the previous ones did.  Thus leaving the foundation in place for the Democraps when they take office in 2004.
   Having said all this, I support your RIGHT to buy S&W products or any others you want.  I request that you support MY right to choose not to.
I also would hate to see you leave this fourm.  You have much knowlege to pass on to us and I do enjoy reading your posts.
    Like it has been said.  We agree to disagree about minor things.  And stand together on the important issues.
Thanks for listening.  Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Joe...Thank you for your wortwhile post. Your points very well taken! We are in no disagreement on on Smith's stupid management move!!! If there is an disagreement, it is only in the method we use teach them a lesson. As you my recall, I thought a boycott of their premie line would work. My original post was not aimed at letting them get away with this deal, but rather to use calm and collected methods to get to them.
We all have a right to express out opinions and the right to react.....I would be the first to help defend those rights, eregardless whether I was in agreement. Our emotions are the first that our enemy wil use! I know as a fact that millions are spent profiling the consumer market and they may well know how we will react moreso that we know ourselves. I do stress again that I will be against any move that will profit the anti's. There is an old saying I believe in..."Know (be close to) your friends, but know (be closer to) your enemy better"
Thank you again for your comments and Best Regards, James



<!--EDIT|James Gates|Feb. 18 2002,18:14-->
 

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James Gates
  Amen! I should be more careful with my brand of needleing people. I dont take any body elses needleing serious and I step on peoples toes because I dont think any one takes me too seriously.. If I have offended any one,I appoligise.But you are entirely right . We dont want to lose our congeniality and start a big bunch of mean arguments.
As an old friend used to say' Dont get into a p----- match with a skunk.Even if you win you're going to lose."
Nuff said
  tbc
 

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James,
Great post.  I agree with you whole heartedly about moles.  A little bit of a different take, I remember ten or twelve years ago there was a terrible amount of tension in the bowhunting community.  Traditional archers were upset with techno advances of the new compound bows and the compound users were griping about the traditionalists.  I'm a bowhunter from way back and have used compounds, recurves and longbows to hunt with.  While each individual is passionate about the nuances they feel appropriate, we all have a common goal, to enjoy and insure that our sports or traditions stay alive and that we can continue to enjoy the 2nd Amendment and Bill of Rights.  While we have every right to disagree about one gun, one caliber, one company, politics, etc...we should all stay united and not lose sight of the big picture.  I do apologize to any and all if any post I have made were derogatory to any member.
 

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I personally embarked on a boycott against Smith & Wesson since the agreement with HUD and the Clinton Administration. I believe it was a poorly thought-out decision to curry favor with the government in hopes of lucrative contracts. Not only did that backfire, so did S&W's belief that we the shooting community would forget. I will continue to boycott any new Smith & Wesson product until the day the company unequivocally terminates the agreement.

Now, all that said, it makes me very sad to do this. I have used S&W firearms since my earliest days in handgunning. I really like many of their products. It also bothers me that I may be assisting in the destruction of an American icon. However I see this and other areas of the "gun control debate" as our Rubicon that must be crossed, never to look back upon the decision. I believe the shooting community must stand firm in the face of actions such as the S&W sellout, showing not only the hard core antis like Clinton, Reno, Brady, et al but also John Q. and Mary Citizen that we believe our fight is a just cause. One that we will endure casualties if we must to ensure ultimate victory. One that we hope by our actions, the non-shooting majority will realize is something worth fighting for. Make no mistake, this most definitely is socio-political warefare. We must all stand together or we most certainly will fall one by one until the Second Amendment is no more.
 

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Bill,
I too am in a personal boycott with Smith.  I too hate to do it, THE finest factory revolver I have ever put my grubby little mitts on was a Smith Model 610.  That revolver felt like it came from straight from a custom shop.  It is a personal choice of mine to boycott Smith & Wesson, I just cannot believe the audacity it took for them to think we would stand by without being counted.

Having said that, I will harbor no angst against someone who wants to buy a S&W.  I disagree with them, but it is their choice.  I am dearly hoping S&W will be able to make amends to the shooting public.  If they don't, well, I hope their bicycles are selling well...

Why are they making bicycles?
 

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Because no one is buying their guns.

And I too hold no animosity to anyone who doesn't hold my view. I just hope they would come around to it, and that's why this forum is so valuable. We can all discuss controversial topics like this in a civil manner while refraining from name calling, etc.
 

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Bill,
Yessir.  

Marshall, Mike, the Administrators and the Moderators, I think you are doing a wonderful service to the shooting public and a great job at maintaining this site.  Seems here in Alaska anytime gun talk comes up, we all preach to the choir.  It's nice to have different viewpoints and is great for new information.

Thank you.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Friends All....This has been an excellent run!!! We are all learning the difference in a debate on issues, where points are made pro&con...Vs an arguement, that only separate the troops. All the points are very good! Everyone on the forum should read, study, and decide their methods.The interesting thing about all this is we are all in agreement that it was a stupid move on Smith's management.It only comes down to different ideas on what to do about it. I think this has been a healthy run and sure clears to air. As he said...."United we stand, Divided we fall"
My Very Best Regards To All......James
 

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Well, as Addison Powell once said,
"A porcupine is not dumb as many will assume, but fairly bristles with pointed facts, sharp realities and penetrating truths."

I reckon so...

Trailing and Camping in Alaska by Addison Powell
 

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Alyeska338,

Thanks for the kind words re: the moderators.  For the most part it is kind of fun, then there are the days when you have to wade around in the shallow end of the gene pool, cleaning up the debris.
 

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Mike,
While I've never moderated a website, I have had the responsibility of saying "yall play nice now, you hear" to a very diverse group of adults on several occasions.  It is not an enviable position to be in, but it is sure appreciated by everyone.  You and all the others have done a fantastic job and deserve to hear it a whole lot more than you do.  So, I'll say it again, great job and Thank you.

Also, I would like to thank Marshall for hunting down the picture of the moose in the humor section.  I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer and couldn't get the image posted.  The story is not the same without the picture.  Thanks for the edit.
 
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