[ah-ha]

I think Hodgdon makes it. Triple x or some such name? I gather it offers 2400 fps velocities. You would need paper patched cast bullets, surely.

 

[MikeG]

Yes, that would be Triple-7. I'm sure you can find a substantial amount of information on the Hodgdon web site.

Let us know if you can't locate that.

 

[hailstone]

I've tried it and various other substitutes. Works okay in in-lines but you'll have troubles with percussion and flintlocks. I've found a volume to volume substitution tends too produce more recoil which I would interput too indicate higher velocity. After using the substitutes the only real advantage I can find is absence of rotten egg smell when cleaning black powder fired rifles. Suppose that might make some wives complain.

 

[MontyF]

Triple Seven is the magnum of black powder substitutes. It's advised by Hodgdon to reduce your charge and restart load development. It can be used in percusion and flintlocks if using a sharting charge of black powder and then using the main charge of Triple Seven over the starting charge.

 

[Bearstopper]

I have used it exclusively in a 54 cal Rem 700 ML with excellent results. They recommend a 15% decrease to equal a given BP load. The main reason I went with it is the fact that it is non corrosive. In that regard it is like smokeless powder so no worries with a complete thorough cleaning after every session. I want to try it with a cartridge load in 45 Colt. Anyone using it in this application or something similiar?

 

[MontyF]

welcome to the site Bearstopper. Hope you enjoy our company. Just a couple rules, play nice and have fun!

 

[ribbonstone]

Probably at higher pressures, but in most in-lines it wouldn't be a worry. Never got into in-lines, am more of a traditionalist.

Worked in a .36 under hammer percussion, but that's about as direct a line of ignition as possible. Worked in percussion revolvers, but I don't load them to loading-lever-bending levels. Worked in some metallic cartridge loads but never gave great accuracy.

Never tried in in a flinter. Have shot other substitutes with 4f in the pan and a "kicker" charge of black, but why bother? really complicates the loading process and as you're still shooting some black with each shot, seems to have no advantage.

Do suspect it of higher pressure if used bulk for bulk. Really gave a .31 revolver a bit of "zip" that BP never did and seemed to give the .36's more power as well (never did chronograph them). No 44's. (Yeah..if it were 1860 and i had to shoot Indians,'yankees, or deer I'd want a .44. But it's now, and all i have to shoot are targets and the occasional dumb rabbit.)

I clean them the same no matter what, so any advaqnatge there is minimal...but 777 did seem to clean up with a bit less effort.

 

[oldred]

The main reason I went with it is the fact that it is non corrosive. In that regard it is like smokeless powder so no worries with a complete thorough cleaning after every session.

Where did you get that idea? That stuff is quite corrosive and is in no way like smokeless in that respect! It may not be nearly as bad for fouling and corrosion as BP but as far being corrosive it will corrode a barrel rapidly if not cleaned properly in a short time.

 

[hailstone]

Yup the proported advantages of substitutes are not that great overall. All require cleaning after usage but some allow more latitude in time frame between firing and cleaning. After shooting the substitutes I've just went back too using the good old original product. Only complaint I have is the increasing difficulity of obtaining the original with all the regulations imposed on retailers. Cabela's used too be my main source but have dropped the product within last year.

 

[Smokewagon]

I want to try it with a cartridge load in 45 Colt. Anyone using it in this application or something similiar?

I'm using the Triple 7 in my .45 Colt loads. Case filled and compressed about 1/8th of an inch. 255 grain, hardcast lead. I shoot these in a Ruger Vaquero (old model), and a Rossi M92. The round has been chronied from the Rossi at 1198 fps. Recoil in the Vaquero is kind of magnumish, for lack of a better word. Easy clean up, though more fouling in the revolver. Makes for some enjoyable shooting.

 

[Gunny0321]

A couple of observations, I deduced from his post since he mentioned "Paper Patched" that he was "NOT" talking about any Muzzle Loader or there loads. Second since he posted this on the Blackpowder Cartridge Shooting and Loading Topic page once again I don't believe ah-ha was speaking to a muzzle loader load.

ah-ha, what caliber are you loading for? And second if it is a traditional Black Powder Cartridge Caliber why in the world would you ever want to achieve 2,400 FPS velocity? I also don't believe that Paper Patching would help in anyway with a "Hotter" load. That is not the purpose of paper patching, nor would it be any benefit in that case.

Now I am going to make "possible" a huge mistake and make an assumption. That usually ends up biting me when I assume anything. If this is in fact a Traditional BPCR and caliber these always do best with Black Powder "Always". I have 28 Notebooks with my range records and findings in shooting BPCR rifles and calibers. Everything from the 40-65 thru the 45-110. 50-70 and a 50-90 and 50-110 Sharps calibers. I have tested all of the Substitute powders and never once have I even come close to the accuracy of straight Black Powder. For the life of me I can see no benefit what so ever in using any of them. I have always found them very dirty harder to control as far as the fouling is concerned and """MUCH""" more corrisive despit some claims to the contrary.

Now when it comes to speed or velocity in a BPCR rifle. They really do shoot best at a much more moderate velocity than 2,400 FPS. At that velocity and speed the bullets depending on how hard they are cast. I personally never cast harder than 25 to 1 and most of my casting is at 30 to 1. Bullet or bullet nose slump has just got to accur, damage the nose and accuracy is all but a thing of the past. Also with Black Powder the soft lead hand cast bullets are "Bumped Up" at ingnition to full the grooves of the rifling, I am not to sure that this happens with the substitutes but I could be wrong about that.

These BPCR rifles were designed to shoot Black Powder, as are all of the Reproductions that I have seen. They have very shallow rifling to accomdate Black Powder and soft cast bullets, unlike there younger smokeless cousins. They just do better with Black Powder.

Also while I shoot a lot thus I need a lot of powder, Black Powder is not hard to come by not at all. I personally shoot Swiss BP and simply order it by the case. It comes on the UPS Truck and a case lot is 25 lbs. You actually as a private citizen can order up to 50 lbs ""Legally"" and have it delivered to your door. My powder I order from Main Powder House I think they also sell in lots of as low as 5 lbs. Black may be harder to come by at the local store, but it is readily available to all of us shooters today.

RS

 

[sharps4590]

Well said Gunny. Mirrors my experience to a T. I suppose that's why they're called substitutes.

I've tried T-7 in 2 or 3 of my BPC rifles....it was ok but I wasn't impressed. GOEX Ctg. and Swiss both beat up on it. Of the subs the old GOEX Clear Shot gave me the best accuracy but it was evident that velocity was decreased altho I did not chrono any loads.

I have dealt with Maine Powder House and there is also Coonies in New Mexico and Upper Missouri Trading Co. in Crofton, Nebraska and Graf & Sons in Mexico, Missouri. I believe Upper Mo. and Grafs also will ship short lots.

 

[oldred]

I The main reason I went with it is the fact that it is non corrosive. In that regard it is like smokeless powder so no worries with a complete thorough cleaning after every session.

This fellow was talking about triple 7 a couple of posts back but he only posted that one time and has not been back since, apparently he never even checked for replies. I don't know where he got that extremely mistaken idea but I am willing to bet he has been in for a rude awakening and probably a ruined bore by now!

 

[meq10s]

the makers of accurate arms powders have a black powder substitute that is supposed to be real good too. I forget the name of it something something 209. You need to use a shotgun 209 primer to set it off. I may try it in my 45-120.

 

[oldred]

That would be Blackhorn 209 and I use it in my 45/90, or at least I will until I use up this last batch. It's not because I don't like it, it works great and this is one BP alternative that is not corrosive, the reason I am going to stop using it is because it is way overpriced! Nearly $35 for 10 ounces just don't go very far when filling up those big cases and it does just that, slightly compressed load with a Lee 500 grain cast RN.

I have heard disagreement about this powder as to whether it is corrosive or not but I have tested it and found it is not, it does tend to stain brass such as fired cases but does not cause the corrosion problems of BP (or worse, Pryodex!).

 

[HarryS]

Been shooting Pyrodex in my flintlock since it came out. I'm satisfied no problem. I use it for deer hunting and informal target.

 

[bobcouchman]

i use 777 in my sharps 50-90. load to a level of 1/8" compression with 535 gr cast performance gc bullets and have excellent results. with my tang sight and poor eyes i can do 2.5" groups at 100 yds. so it is as good as any black and not as toxic.

 

[oldred]

i as good as any black and not as toxic.

BP is toxic??????

Highly addictive maybe, but toxic?

 

[Red Pepper]

These BPCR rifles were designed to shoot Black Powder, as are all of the Reproductions that I have seen. They have very shallow rifling to accomdate Black Powder and soft cast bullets, unlike there younger smokeless cousins. They just do better with Black Powder.

RS

This was a very interesting revelation to me that explained something I have seen with my BPCR rifle. When shooting smokeless and hard lead bullets, if I get velocities over 1500 fps or so the groups open up into shotgun patterns (like 18" at 35 yards!). If I keep the velocities under 1400 fps or use jacketed bullets at the higher velocities (all with smokeless), it seems to shoot fairly well. I could never figure out why the lead bullets seemed to tumble when pushed, but if the rifling is shallower than in rifles designed for smokeless powder, it would seem that the lead bullets probably just strip past the rifling.

 

[don44]

I use 777 in my TC Renegade and it works great. Very accurate in my 54 cal Renegade and my son's too!