I'm like you....interested and curious. I've got 30 rounds loaded up for some preliminary testing the next time I go to the range. I have found a reference to the Speer 130 flatnose in an article by Paco Kelly.
El Lobo in NM
"The best bullet I have found so far for my 30-30s is the Speer 130 grain flat tip. H322 gives this bullet 2720 fps...with a 3 inch high point at 100 yards it is down only 12 inches at 300 yards...goodness are we still talking about the 30-30?" (end quote)
Thanks for the reply, but I wouldn't touch a "Paco" Kelly load with a ten foot pole. I just checked my Speer Manual No. 13 and their max load with H322 doesn't even net 2400 fps. His load of 38.5 grains exceeds Speer's by almost 16%! It would not surprise me if such a load pressure tested in excess of 45,000 cup.
As is usually the case Mr. Kelly exceeds any sense of caution in data he provides his audience.
(Edited by Bill Lester at 9:50 pm on May 16, 2001)
The 130 grain speer is one of two bullets I use in the 30/30. As far as use on game this bullet is superb! Penetration is good and usually complete, and this is for antelope and mule deer. No I don't use this bullet or cartridge on elk there are much better choices. The other 30/30 bullet is the Speer 110 grain hollow point. Very soft and desructive!!!!!!!!!!!! My load for the 130 is 36 grains of Re15 with under one inch groups at 100 yards. The rifle is a 1956 vintage model 64 deluxe (like new) that my lovely and talented wife gave to me for Christmas a couple of years ago. These two bullets were designed by Speer to work at the velocity range of the 30/30, which is why they work VERY WELL.
Thanks for the reply. I would wholeheartedly agree with your assessment that many bullets work best within a rather limted velocity range. Pump them faster than the engineers intended and you get "interesting" results on game. I'm glad to hear you can expect full penetration on deer-size game. I assume you mean with chest shots? About how many antelope and mulies have you taken with the Speer 130?
Your M64 Deluxe sounds great. I really like their looks compared to the typical M94. Sounds like it and the 130 flatnose have been a good combination for you.
In fairness to Paco, he states in the same article that this load does indeed exceed published max but makes a good case for the fact that we are not afraid to load the same lever gun in 375 Win, 45-70, 444, or 38-55 to higher pressures than the original loadings so why hold the little 3030 back so? The pressures involved are not going to blow primers and are still easier in the gun than the larger cased rounds. FWIW. KevinNY
Kevin, I'm sorry to disagree with you but that is simply untrue. Loading the .38-55 to high pressures is just as foolish. The other cartridges you mentioned all have substantially stronger construction than either of the 19th Century offerings in question. Sectioning them will instantly show this is the case (pun intended). Loading them to their SAAMI average maximum pressure is safe. My concern is not gun failure but cartridge failure, particularly so after a few loadings with the same .30 WCF brass. Even so I feel confident that the working pressure of his stated .30-30/130 load will exceed the safety margin of the standard Winchester 94 and quite possibly the Marlin 336 as well.
Mr. Kelly's cavalier attitude towards handloading is questionable at best. If he wishes to play Russian Roulette with his handloads, that's his business. But to establish himself as the de facto expert on "improving" old cartridge performance for a worldwide audience that may or may not understand the situation is troubling.
(Edited by Bill Lester at 10:16 am on May 18, 2001)
To Bill and The Rest...Here again comes the situation that someone wants the forum's opinion and then argues the point. Here again someone on another forum places a load that goes well outside of factory pressures! BTB Forum has in the past, as it should, been conservative on supercharging any caliber! Expermenting within the pressure limits of an action is all right, but making statements that that apples should compare with oranges just doesn't fly. To compare a straight wall case to a tapered case and how it handles bolt thrust is plain stupid, they just don't react the same. In the case of lever guns bolt thrust is ten times more important than "blow up" pressure. Even the strongest lever gun pressure is related to bolt thrust on the locking lug, or lugs. When the pressure exceeds the design of lever guns they "stretch" and problems begin! The only exception to this are the few designs around where the bolt lugs engage like a bolt action rifle. These people on other forums post these loads without the benefit of pressure gun, etc. They seem to think all the companies post ultra consevative load data. That is a rare case anymore. I know....don't come tell me about oldies like the 7mm Mauser, 257 Roberts, 7mm Mauser and the rest. If you had seen some of the rifles made up on those calibers you would know why they have kept the pressure down.
I only hope that this Forum will remain conserative and recommend safe loads within the design of the cartridge and firearm. We live in an age of faster is better....and it's nothing but a sales gimmick! If you want to go to a higher velocity ....buy another rifle!
Best Regards, James
(Edited by James Gates at 4:15 pm on May 18, 2001)
I am not argueing for Paco's cause,but a new marlin336 vs a 94 made at the turn of the century is not apples to apples either,the cases are not the same either,One could argue that a new starline 45-70 case is the same as an old blackpowder case too and Marshalls hatful of 335 in a marlin and a 405gr bullet gives substantially more pressure AND bolt thrust than a 3030,the 45-70 IS a tapered case by the way. If it was straight we'd have carbide dies for it and it would be a 475. It is not my intention to step on any toes here and of course the safest way to make your 3030 shoot faster is to run a 3030 Ackley Improved reamer into it! KevinNY
I personaly have never used the 130 grain speer.A friend of mine swears by this bullet,it is the only bullet that he uses for deer.I have seen him kill many deer with this bullet and they have all been clean kills.He has never wounded or lost a deer using this load.I do not shoot the 30/30 myself very much,but I may try some of these bullets myself next hunting season.
You're right about the .30-30 of today being different from that of 1895- it's thinner. When smokeless was new the Winchester engineers made the case thicker than was really needed. Over the decades this was realized and the brass was thinned for a number of reasons. It is a demonstrable fact.
As I stated before, my concern is not with gun failure but cartridge failure. 16% overloads as Mr. Kelly spouts as safe will with certainty prematurely wear the cases. Should we assume the brass is usable after one, two, three or how many loadings? Furthermore why do we feel that hot rodding a perfectly good cartridge is needed? The 130-grain Speer at 2400-2500 fps depending on barrel length should do just fine for its intended game. Why risk reduced bullet performance by overtaxing the projectile?
But then again I'm not trying to sell CD-ROMs with home cooked load data either.
I can see your concerns as far as case life goes,I guess you are worried about loose primer pockets and such. Not to belabor the point but the 375 win is the same case head and goes 49000 CUP so I guess they are just not reloadable?
The beauty of a lever action besides the way they carry so nicely in one hand is the way they tell you your load is to much. I worked up to 39 grains of Re15 whereupon the lever opened rather hard. So you quit and back off on your load, chances are the gun will shoot better a couple of grains lower anyway. And i've shot two antelope that went down like you dropped asafe on them. The mule deer (3) all went a little ways, but dropped in sight probably under 50 yards. Ranges go from 200+ down to 40 yards. Have'nt recovered one yet and I do dig around for them.
While identical in two dimensions, the .30-30 and .375 are substantially different in head thickness. If you have an example of each, please section them and it will be readily apparent to the naked eye that the .375 is much thicker. It is a much stronger cartridge and can handle 52,000 cup. The .30-30 case cannot, nor should be loaded to anything that even approaches that value. My concern with hot loading the .30 WCF is primer pocket blow-by and quite possibly head separations when loaded with Paco Kelly-type loads.
As James alluded to, comparing their strengths is comparing apples to oranges.
Thanks for your last message. Your point is well founded regarding the ease of opening an action and high pressures. When the strain makes your eyeballs sweat, you know you've gone too far. Your hunting experiences are also appreciated. I wish I had tried this bullet in my old 94 Trapper before trading it, as I would probably still have it. As it stands I'm leaning towards a Marlin Cowboy, although you never know what gems may appear on the used market when the time to buy comes along.
Sometimes lately the Forum reminders me of a cartoon I saw years ago....There were two cows standing by a stampede passing by. One says to the other, "Is this the North-South stampede or the East-West Stampede?" We start of with a simple question asking who has used the 130 gr Speer on game......and end up beating and dead dog that ain't going to run anyway! We didn't get to be number 5 this way. And will not remain number 5 if this continues. It is a complete turn off to the new members we need. Experimental load development is important...under control situations, and that dos not include home loading room techniques. I don't care who comes up with these claims on other forums. In the past we have held the line on this subject. If a member, old or new, asks a question..he wants an answer to that question....not a dicussion on theory of pressures. We just got through with one run on trying to turn the .44 mag into something beyond safe practices. That went nowhere, nor will this. Oh well........Punt!
Best Regards, James
I have been using the Remington 125gr psp in my single shot and my wifes Stevens 30-30. Backed by 37.5gr H335 it has taken several whitetails cleanly.I was shooting targets today, with my 24" barreled single shot 30-30, and a very accurate Remington 22-250. Out to 250 yards there was very little difference between the rifles. I like this class of bullet in the 30-30, it is fun to shoot, accurate, and doesn't boot you too hard. After todays shooting, my shooting buddy was so impressed with my 30-30 load, he wants me to load the 130 flat for his model 94.
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