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This bullet has intrigued me for a while, as used in the .30-30. One can get pretty decent velocity but I wonder how well it performs on whitetails. Anyone used this bullet for such things?
Posts by Bill Lester
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Thanks for the reply, but I wouldn't touch a "Paco" Kelly load with a ten foot pole. I just checked my Speer Manual No. 13 and their max load with H322 doesn't even net 2400 fps. His load of 38.5 grains exceeds Speer's by almost 16%! It would not surprise me if such a load pressure tested in excess of 45,000 cup.
As is usually the case Mr. Kelly exceeds any sense of caution in data he provides his audience.
(Edited by Bill Lester at 9:50 pm on May 16, 2001)
As is usually the case Mr. Kelly exceeds any sense of caution in data he provides his audience.
(Edited by Bill Lester at 9:50 pm on May 16, 2001)
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Moose,
Thanks for the reply. I would wholeheartedly agree with your assessment that many bullets work best within a rather limted velocity range. Pump them faster than the engineers intended and you get "interesting" results on game. I'm glad to hear you can expect full penetration on deer-size game. I assume you mean with chest shots? About how many antelope and mulies have you taken with the Speer 130?
Your M64 Deluxe sounds great. I really like their looks compared to the typical M94. Sounds like it and the 130 flatnose have been a good combination for you.
Thanks for the reply. I would wholeheartedly agree with your assessment that many bullets work best within a rather limted velocity range. Pump them faster than the engineers intended and you get "interesting" results on game. I'm glad to hear you can expect full penetration on deer-size game. I assume you mean with chest shots? About how many antelope and mulies have you taken with the Speer 130?
Your M64 Deluxe sounds great. I really like their looks compared to the typical M94. Sounds like it and the 130 flatnose have been a good combination for you.
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Kevin, I'm sorry to disagree with you but that is simply untrue. Loading the .38-55 to high pressures is just as foolish. The other cartridges you mentioned all have substantially stronger construction than either of the 19th Century offerings in question. Sectioning them will instantly show this is the case (pun intended). Loading them to their SAAMI average maximum pressure is safe. My concern is not gun failure but cartridge failure, particularly so after a few loadings with the same .30 WCF brass. Even so I feel confident that the working pressure of his stated .30-30/130 load will exceed the safety margin of the standard Winchester 94 and quite possibly the Marlin 336 as well.
Mr. Kelly's cavalier attitude towards handloading is questionable at best. If he wishes to play Russian Roulette with his handloads, that's his business. But to establish himself as the de facto expert on "improving" old cartridge performance for a worldwide audience that may or may not understand the situation is troubling.
(Edited by Bill Lester at 10:16 am on May 18, 2001)
Mr. Kelly's cavalier attitude towards handloading is questionable at best. If he wishes to play Russian Roulette with his handloads, that's his business. But to establish himself as the de facto expert on "improving" old cartridge performance for a worldwide audience that may or may not understand the situation is troubling.
(Edited by Bill Lester at 10:16 am on May 18, 2001)
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Kevin,
You're right about the .30-30 of today being different from that of 1895- it's thinner. When smokeless was new the Winchester engineers made the case thicker than was really needed. Over the decades this was realized and the brass was thinned for a number of reasons. It is a demonstrable fact.
As I stated before, my concern is not with gun failure but cartridge failure. 16% overloads as Mr. Kelly spouts as safe will with certainty prematurely wear the cases. Should we assume the brass is usable after one, two, three or how many loadings? Furthermore why do we feel that hot rodding a perfectly good cartridge is needed? The 130-grain Speer at 2400-2500 fps depending on barrel length should do just fine for its intended game. Why risk reduced bullet performance by overtaxing the projectile?
But then again I'm not trying to sell CD-ROMs with home cooked load data either.
:wink:
You're right about the .30-30 of today being different from that of 1895- it's thinner. When smokeless was new the Winchester engineers made the case thicker than was really needed. Over the decades this was realized and the brass was thinned for a number of reasons. It is a demonstrable fact.
As I stated before, my concern is not with gun failure but cartridge failure. 16% overloads as Mr. Kelly spouts as safe will with certainty prematurely wear the cases. Should we assume the brass is usable after one, two, three or how many loadings? Furthermore why do we feel that hot rodding a perfectly good cartridge is needed? The 130-grain Speer at 2400-2500 fps depending on barrel length should do just fine for its intended game. Why risk reduced bullet performance by overtaxing the projectile?
But then again I'm not trying to sell CD-ROMs with home cooked load data either.
:wink:
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Kevin,
While identical in two dimensions, the .30-30 and .375 are substantially different in head thickness. If you have an example of each, please section them and it will be readily apparent to the naked eye that the .375 is much thicker. It is a much stronger cartridge and can handle 52,000 cup. The .30-30 case cannot, nor should be loaded to anything that even approaches that value. My concern with hot loading the .30 WCF is primer pocket blow-by and quite possibly head separations when loaded with Paco Kelly-type loads.
As James alluded to, comparing their strengths is comparing apples to oranges.
Moose,
Thanks for your last message. Your point is well founded regarding the ease of opening an action and high pressures. When the strain makes your eyeballs sweat, you know you've gone too far. Your hunting experiences are also appreciated. I wish I had tried this bullet in my old 94 Trapper before trading it, as I would probably still have it. As it stands I'm leaning towards a Marlin Cowboy, although you never know what gems may appear on the used market when the time to buy comes along.
While identical in two dimensions, the .30-30 and .375 are substantially different in head thickness. If you have an example of each, please section them and it will be readily apparent to the naked eye that the .375 is much thicker. It is a much stronger cartridge and can handle 52,000 cup. The .30-30 case cannot, nor should be loaded to anything that even approaches that value. My concern with hot loading the .30 WCF is primer pocket blow-by and quite possibly head separations when loaded with Paco Kelly-type loads.
As James alluded to, comparing their strengths is comparing apples to oranges.
Moose,
Thanks for your last message. Your point is well founded regarding the ease of opening an action and high pressures. When the strain makes your eyeballs sweat, you know you've gone too far. Your hunting experiences are also appreciated. I wish I had tried this bullet in my old 94 Trapper before trading it, as I would probably still have it. As it stands I'm leaning towards a Marlin Cowboy, although you never know what gems may appear on the used market when the time to buy comes along.
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