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Discussion Starter #1
Would not the standard A2 stock be more accurate than the collapsible stock? I have a SW MP 15 with a 16 inch barrel, not impressed with it's accuracy at 100 yards( 1.5 to 2in) My experience is with the fixed stock M16 A2 and 20 inch barrel. Had it at the range this past weekend, and used a Caldwell Led Sled to prevent movement. I noticed the stock on mine and my friends AR had movement in the stock. So if you replaced the stock, that would get rid of un-helpful movement....Correct....
 

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What you say makes sense, also you don't see collapsible stocks on varmint type AR's or National Match rifles, the NM rules may be the reason. I like the A2 because I can keep a cleaning rod,brush,oil,patches, spoone,small misc parts, and a lighter tucked away under the trap door.
 

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You will not see any difference in accuracy if you put a fixed stock on there any more than you see a change in accuracy when you put in an Accu-wedge. The movement between stock buffer and between lower and upper affect actual accuracy very little if at all. I saw no increase in accuracy when I used the JP action tensioner to remove slop between upper and lower and I saw no change in accuracy when I went from an HK E2 stock to a PRS on my 6.8 SPC SPR rifle. Maybe, and it is a big maybe, if bench rest shooting at 500 yards you might see a 1/4 MOA difference but I wouldn't bet on it even then. The reason you don't see CAR stocks on rifles is because it is counter to the intended job of the rifle. You just don't normally put full length stocks on SBRs because you want compactness, and you don't normally put telescoping stocks on rifle length barreled uppers, especially when sporting high powered optics. You can, but it looks odd. For long range precision shooting you want a rock solid platform, true, but that will only aid the shooter in making a better shot because there is no movement between eye and scope but it does not really enhance the ability of the upper to shoot better. And most shooters will not see any difference in accuracy, wiggle or not.
And sad to say, the S&W is not exactly known for MOA accuracy out of the box. Contrary to the gun rags like Guns and Ammo and Shooting Times who never met a gun they didn't love, especially when the gun maker takes out full page ads in the same issue, the M&P 15 in the standard models is not set up for best accuracy. The non-free-floated barrel along with a good barrel, but not a great barrel, 1.5-2 MOA is all you should expect. If you want that rifle to go MOA or better, dump the chrome lined M4 barrel and M4 handguards and put on a match grade barrel and free float handguards. Then you will see MOA or better accuracy, regardless of which stock you put on there. Put on a Noveske (Pac-Nor) barrel along with some free float handguards, even if you use a 16 inch and keep the same butt stock, and you will see your groups cut to MOA or better instantly.
People get all ga-ga over chrome lining in their barrels and chambers and 99% of them would be just as well served with an unlined barrel. You don't see ARs in varmint configurations set up with chrome lined barrels. It is great and necessary in a weapon that will not-or cannot-be kept clean, will see harsh conditions, or will be shot full auto, but on a rifle you want utmost accuracy out of, normally you will not get it with a chrome lined barrel. You also do not see chromed barrels on the BR circuit and it is because of accuracy.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
AR 15 Carbine/Over A2

Thanks both. I have been looking into a friends Ecotech sight for the S&W. Just with past experience the standard issue M16 and M16 A2, they would shoot circles around this S&W. I did understand the chrome lined barrel problem, DOD had it have the new M16 barrel chrome lined. Due to the lack of cleaning they would jam, or fail to fire, when they first came out.. So if you clean your weapons then no problem. I have been collecting parts for the 6.8, think I will use this one for accuracy, and use the S&W and Ecotech as a CQB weapon.

Thanks
 

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BigBore,
I agree, but! my Bushmaster National Match has chrome linning in the barrel and Chamber, and just shoots great, it keeps up with my Bushmaster Varminter in Stainless, as long as scopes are used. Now a loose stock or one that has lots of Play/movement has to be bad for accuracy, no way around it!
 

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i think everyone is missing the point of the collapsable stock. the origional intent was for adjusting the length of pull when wearing body armor or thick clothing. accuracy is hardly if at all changed when switching from one to the other.
 

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BigBore,
I agree, but! my Bushmaster National Match has chrome linning in the barrel and Chamber, and just shoots great, it keeps up with my Bushmaster Varminter in Stainless, as long as scopes are used. Now a loose stock or one that has lots of Play/movement has to be bad for accuracy, no way around it!
There will always be an anecdotal story of a chrome lined barrel shooting as good or better that a particular varmint or match barrel, but one or a hundred stories do not make it a general fact. I am talking in generalities, not individual cases. In general, chrome lined barrels do not shoot as accurately as do non-chrome lined barrels. But there will always be a certain chrome lined barrel that will out shoot a certain match barrel, because not all match barrels are made the same as are not all chrome lined barrels made the same. Face it, there are a lot of so called match barrels out there by certain companies that are only slightly better than a tent stake. I have no doubt an Olympic match barrel can be out shot by quite a few chrome lined barrels, but put the best chrome lined barrel up against the best match grade barrel and the chrome lined barrel will come up short when the range is long and tight groups are needed. Chrome lining was never intended to enhance accuracy, only to aid in reliability and longevity under FA fire. What good is a super match grade barrel in combat when it cannot be cleaned and jams like crazy or the throat shoots out under prolonged FA fire? It is all a trade off. You give up a little bit of accuracy for much longer life and better reliability. In combat, I'll take that trade off in spades. Match barrels never see that kind of treatment and are kept whisker clean, so chrome lining is not needed or wanted and you will never see a match barrel chrome lined and used in serious long range shooting. Just think about how a chrome lined barrel and a match barrel are made. A match barrel is made by either hammer forging, cutting, or button rifling and then lapped to perfection. One of these barrel can be air gauged to be consistent to within .0003 inch or less from chamber to muzzle. A chrome lined barrel is made by cutting the chamber and bore oversized, then plating the chrome to get the barrel back into spec. And there will always be variances in the thickness of the chrome lining from chamber to muzzle and from land to groove. It will not be much, but it will be a lot more than .0003 inch variance you find in a true match grade barrel. Remember Kotronics AKA Cardinal Armory? They were put out of business because the people chrome lining their barrels really mucked up a huge lot of barrels. They mucked it up so much that some of the barrels were on the verge of being dangerous to use because the chroming was too thick. Tim being a small business person could not absorb replacing all those barrels although he did all that he could do, but in the end the excessive chrome plating in his barrels put his company under. Sad too because his barrels were some of the best chrome lined barrels on the market at the time. I have two of them and they are extremely accurate, but not near as accurate as my Pac-Nor Super Matches. It is very difficult if not impossible to hold the kind of tolerances needed to make a true match grade barrel and chrome line it. That is not saying a chrome lined barrel cannot be quite accurate, only that if you want the most accuracy you can get from your rifle do not use a chrome lined barrel unless there is a need for it, such as dirty conditions or FA fire. FA fire will ruin a non-chrome lined barrel very shortly through excessive throat erosion.

And movement between the upper and lower or between the lower and stock do nothing to affect the inherent accuracy of the upper. The upper is where it all takes place, and if the shooter is up to the task it matters not if the upper to butt stock is rock solid or wobbles like a top. I have taken my match rifles which had a little bit of movement between upper and lower and put in those expensive JP tensioning devices and they don't do a thing to enhance accuracy. And most other people have found that to be true also. Just check them out on AR15.com. A gimmicky device but it does nothing to increase accuracy. Seems like it should and the ad sounds great, but it is not proven in the real world. Ditto for those accu-wedges. And the same thing applies with butt stock movement. Take a match grade upper and shoot it off a bench rest with a fixed stock and then with a loose as a goose telescoping stock and the groups will be the same. I will grant it that some may find the looseness between upper and lower or between lower and stock to be a distraction and that distraction can lead one to shoot less accurately, but that movement does not inherently hurt the accuracy of the upper. ARs are not like your bolt action rifles where if the action is not tight in the stock accuracy goes to heck in a hand basket. Now, if your barrel is loose, or your forend/barrel nut is loose, sure, that will affect accuracy a LOT, but not slight upper to lower wiggle or stock wiggle.

So all of this begs the question, if fixed solid stocks do not increase accuracy, why are they used? Balance for one, they are dirt cheap for another, and a blow that will put a standard CAR stock down for the count is usually shrugged off by the fixed stock, but consistency of cheek weld and eye alignment with the sights/optics is the main reason. Put a good PRS or other fixed stock on a match rifle so that your eye to sight alignment is the same from shot to shot and it makes shooting accurately so much easier, but the upper does not suddenly become more accurate just because you put a fixed stock on there. It only affects YOUR ability to shoot it more accurately. That is what I am talking about.
 

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Would agree about chrome lined bores, common sense would indicate a problem with uniform bore dimensions. Would disagree about loose components. I know about all the tests from 40 years ago, doesn't hold water with me. Shifting componentry is not condusive to good accuracy. Here's a good common sense approach.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/AccuWedge.html
 

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If there is any shifting or movement in the upper, between the upper and the barrel or between the upper and the optics, accuracy will go to heck in a handbasket very quickly. Coming from bolt guns where any movement is taboo it is sometimes hard to get your head around the fact that movement between the upper and lower or between the lower and the stock does not have an affect. Those accu-wedges, been there, done that, are good for removing movement, but they actually push the two halves apart so while there is no movement you can feel, they do absolutely nothing for accuracy, the same as the JP tensioning device does nothing for accuracy even though it pulls the two halves together rock solid.
It is just one of those things you have to take on faith from people who have used them and have done their own tests with them. I sure have and did not believe the movement would not hurt anything either. Then after about $90 spent on several JP tensioning devices, and some more money on Accu-wedges, and shooting many groups before and after, there is no difference. With them, without them, Accu-wedge that pushes the parts apart under pressure to remove wiggle or the JP tension device that pulls everything together so there is no movement, the groups are not affected. And I did not try them at 100 yards, but at 200, 300, and 500 yards on several of my rifles. The movement just doesn't matter. I did not believe it either and bought all the sales pitches about the JP and the Accu-wedge, and that is all it turned out to be, sales pitches.
My match AR holds three inch groups at 500 yards, with our without either of the devices using the same Black Hills Molly 77 gr. SMK bullets. This is not from 40 years ago, but from only a few years ago when I bought my first AR match rifle and thought I could improve by removing the slop. Expensive lesson learned. Don't believe it, I welcome anyone to try it for themselves, but don't test with one group. The first time I tested it on my son's Colt HBAR, which was a loose as a goose, I thought I saw an improvement, for a group or two. By the time I had shot 20 or so groups, it turned out that first group or two were flukes, the average groups sizes did not decrease one bit. That was why I bought three of the tensioning devices. I shot a couple of groups on the Colt, thought it worked, and bought two more for the match rifle and another rifle. When I saw absolutely no improvement in those rifles I went back and retested the Colt, shooting 20 groups of 5 shots, then the truth was revealed. Those first couple of groups were a fluke and there was no change. Lesson learned, not everything you read on the interweb is BS.
 

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The less your gun moves before the shot, the more accurate it will be. A flimsy telescopic stock and plastic handguards are not the preferred setup, they are called compromises. They reduce weight and size (and cost...) and your gun won't be as accurate with them as it would with a free floated aluminum tube and A2 stock. Chrome lined barrels won't typically shot as well as unlined, but there are exceptions, and you can still lap a chrome bore and that will help immensely.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
AR-15 Carbine Stock/ Over A2

I guess nailing something down, with out using spray and pray, is not what a carbine is used for. My memory is right my issued A2, would shoot circles around my carbine. Still remember my S#, what about some 75g match grade. I was looking at some NRA high power, did not see anything with a positional stock..
 
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