Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have been using the available fill in, download and print form for several years now and for the purchase of at least 7 firearms in several dealers. All I did at the dealer was provide back up documentation, sign it and date it even tough the form says to fill it at the dealer.
Today, a dealer refused to accept it quoting the instruction in the form.
Is this dealer right? If so, why does the ATF provides the option above?
Please advise.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,215 Posts
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I fill in a BUNCH of 4473s and they're all put on the counter by the dealer for me to fill out and sign.

The FIRST thing an ATF agent will ask is, "Did you see him check the boxes and did you witness the signature?"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited by Moderator)
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I fill in a BUNCH of 4473s and they're all put on the counter by the dealer for me to fill out and sign.

The FIRST thing an ATF agent will ask is, "Did you see him check the boxes and did you witness the signature?"
It's obvious you don't know that form 4473 has been available on the web for years on a format that you can fill it on line and then print it. I have been doing this for years and in Washington St, Tennessee, Georgia and Arizona. One, just 6 months ago.


Edit: your post has been abridged to remove obnoxious comments. Please follow board rules when posting.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,215 Posts
You're right. I had no clue 4473s could be printed even though I've been dealing with the #[email protected]& since 1968, buying and selling.
My point is, unless you fill out the form in front of the dealer, it can't be valid, so why waste ink?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
You're right. I had no clue 4473s could be printed even though I've been dealing with the #[email protected]& since 1968, buying and selling.
My point is, unless you fill out the form in front of the dealer, it can't be valid, so why waste ink?
For you info.....
FILLED (type in all info) and printed.....in that order............
This form has been revised many times...the 2012 version was revised in 2016 and the current 2016 version will be obsoleted this December.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,446 Posts
As far as I can determine, the current 4473 form is as revised October 2016. It clearly states at the top of the page in the 'Warning:' section that the form must be: "Prepare in original only at the licensed premises ("licensed premises" includes business temporarily conducted from a qualifying gun show or event in the same State in which the licensed premises is located) unless the transaction qualifies under 18 U.S.C. 922(c). All entries must be hand written in ink. "Please Print."".
Has the OP qualified under 18 U.S.C. 922(c) ?

To wit: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download#:~:text=Generally, ATF Form 4473 must,Federal law, 18 U.S.C.&text=Such Forms 4473 must be,may be submitted to ATF.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922#:~:text=It shall be unlawful for any person who is under,in interstate or foreign commerce.

So, while the form may be printed online, it would seem (in the absence of other written authorization to the contrary) The FFL's who conducted the transactions multiple times previously, were in violation of the ATF rules/laws.


P.S. I stand corrected!! I found this: https://fillable-atf-form-4473.pdffiller.com/#:~:text=Mistakes made on the ATF,FFL dealers losing their licenses.&text=You can fill out form,place of birth, SSN);
 

·
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
Joined
·
23,796 Posts
freeaflin -


You're violating the number one rule of this board. Be nice and treat the opinions of others with courtesy and respect. We don't get up in the face of other members on this board.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,460 Posts
The the form was changed in 2012 to comply with the Paperwork Reduction Act, so it went from 1 page, front & back, to 4 pages. Still trying to wrap my mind around that logic!!!!
Chuckling,
Welcome to bureaucratic thinking, "Simplify" is to them like waving a Blank chec k at a hubgry Lawyer saying Bill me for your work.
It will increase rapidly in complexity to cover the regulator's time and efforts.
After all did they not increase the Space for you to fill in?

Chev. William
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,215 Posts
There's nothing as stressful to a gunshop operator as the dreaded call from BATF, "Ah Sir, in September 1979, you accepted a XXXX model XX ,caliber .XX from Dayton Sports Inc. Do you still have that gun?"
"no?, you sold it? An agent will be there in half an hour to look at the 4473. Please have that available for us. Thank you." Click

My gunshop partner filed 4473s in a five gallon bucket. The 'hard book' was years behind but he didn't sell that much. I have a friend that just retired from a big gunshop in FL after 31 years. His only job was keeping up with the hard book and 4473s.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,446 Posts
This is copied from the ATF Firearms Transaction Record Revisions for the 4473 form effective January 16, 2017. Sounds pretty definitive, no?

"Transferor Certification: Revised language to certify that the form was completed at the licensed business premises unless the transaction meets the requirements of 18 U.S.C. 922(c) and the transaction complies with State or local laws that are applicable to the firearms business. Clarifies that unless the transaction has been denied or cancelled the transferor/seller certifies that it is his/her belief that it is not unlawful for him/her to sell, deliver, transport, or otherwise dispose of the firearm(s) listed on this form to the person identified in Section A."

And here is the link:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/atf-form-4473-firearms-transaction-record-revisions#Notices, Instructions, and Definitions

So, ignore my P.S. Correction above!:D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,215 Posts
CC-- That's a good clarification to have in black and white. As first constituted, if a customer answered the questions right and passed the NCIC check, the dealer HAD to sell to him or risk a lawsuit. It was an untenable position for shop owners that 'knew' something was hinky about the customer. The above language includes 'belief' that it's a legal transaction. If you don't 'believe' the sale is legit, you have a legal 'out'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,200 Posts
At the FFL I have been dealing with the last few years, he has his all computerized. I do it on a computer he has there. It is really quick and painless. Even with my last name, it rarely takes more than 15 minutes.

I did a paper form at a shop in Houston back in December and the clerk had to transfer all that data into his computer to get it processed. It took about a half hour for approval to come back.

I'm renewing my CCL in July which will quit all the waiting nonsense. I let mine lapse when I was having such bad hip issues.
 

·
The Shadow (Super Mod)
Joined
·
7,160 Posts
All I did at the dealer was provide back up documentation, sign it and date it even tough the form says to fill it at the dealer.
Today, a dealer refused to accept it quoting the instruction in the form.

Is this dealer right? If so, why does the ATF provides the option above?
Please advise.
So your only serious question is why does the ATF have the form online.

Probably for many reasons, not least of which was some bozo sued for not being able to "study" that test ahead of time. :rolleyes:
 
  • Like
Reactions: MZ5 and JBelk

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,862 Posts
PDF 4473's have been online for a long time for myriad reasons from availability for dealers and transferers to just plain John Q Public research.

Fillable forms might be online because transferers use them for when YOU want a firearm - so they can fill them out electronically.

If I were a dealer, I wouldn't accept a pre-filled out form, even if a man signed it in front of me. There are too many ways to get jammed up. Come in, scratch it out in pen in front of me or use my computer to fill out my e-form, or.....shop for something else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
967 Posts
It's plain and simple in my case. You come in, fill out the 4473 I hand you. No options. If someone brought one in already filled out (never happened) I'd tell him the proverbial "ain't worth the paper it's printed on" and hand him a 4473 to fill out. If he doesn't like it, he'll have to go elsewhere, simple. I'm not interested in any slight or possible altercation with the BATF.
Mr. Belk--I've never had a BATF agent come check a 4473. They have had me fax or e-mail a copy a couple of times, and once just asked for the buyers name and address.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
I have been using the available fill in, download and print form for several years now and for the purchase of at least 7 firearms in several dealers. All I did at the dealer was provide back up documentation, sign it and date it even tough the form says to fill it at the dealer.
Today, a dealer refused to accept it quoting the instruction in the form.
Is this dealer right? If so, why does the ATF provides the option above?
Please advise.
I have bought dozens of firearms and they have always made me fill out the form in front of them. It is too important for them not to do so and have the ATF find out and yank their license. Lots of forms are available online but that doesn't mean the FFL has to accept them pre filled out. I just takes a couple minutes for Pete's sake.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top