Shooters Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,054 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
11-8-2010 article from the Alaska Dispatch http://alaskadispatch.com/dispatches/news/7403-alaska-bear-attack-a-shot-too-late Really puts bear attacks in perspective. Bears can cover 20 feet in 2/5 of a second - the same time it takes to blink an eye. So at that distance you get one shot at most. This guy got off one round of .375 H&H which would have been fatal eventually. Fortunately for him his friend was able to end the attack with a second shot. Dude is lucky to be alive. There would have been no way to deploy pepper spray unless you were walking around with it in your hand. I'm thinking the best bear gun is going to be a Benelli M-4 or a FN SLP with t the Dixie Dangerous game slug or the Brenneke Black Magic slugs. At point blank range there is nothing like a 700 or 800 grain
.73 caliber freight train.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,641 Posts
Fortunately I've never had to stop a bear attack, but based on the time to die of various big game with lethal non-nervious-system hits (e.g. heart/lung), I doubt if a larger projectile will stop the attack immediately unless the nervous system or means of locomotion is destroyed by the projectile. I do agree that bigger is better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,784 Posts
It doesn't matter how big the bullet is if it misses.

If it hits what it must to stop a charge (as Irv said, CNS hit is the only thing that will do it inside 20 yards) then much smaller rounds will do it quite well. A shot to the brain of any bear from a good bullet in .30-06 will kill instantly. You do not need monster cartridges to make a good CNS shot.

To immobilize it (not kill it) by breaking down the skeleton of a large bear makes the .375 H&H a much better choice, and would likely anchor any bear with say a double shoulder shot. But no one will be able to make such a shot from the angles presented during a charge. Many absolutely fatal shots will take from 10 to 20 seconds to have their final effect (heart/lung shots for example from any cartridge no matter how big) and animals that can move as fast as bears and do damage as fast as bears, can cover a lot of ground and do a lot of damage in that time.

The problem with stopping charges is not sheer power, but accuracy. Some animals charge in a straight line and with little head movement (watch videos of lion charges for instance, or elephants) and accuracy can be quite easy. Some, like bears, will often be moving at rapidly changing angles and their biology makes their heads bob and weave as they come. They are much harder to hit accurately. Bigger won't solve any of those problems.

Big enough is important, but big enough is a lot smaller than modern forum mythology often tries to argue. Having a giant gun will not make you safer than having enough gun.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,618 Posts
I always considered that I'll carry either a FAL or my M4 carbine, due to the fact that I can hit fast and repeatidly under stress. That and the fact I've carried the systems for nearly 30 years had have the skills down. Hits count, misses don't.

CD
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,054 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I'm not disrespecting the .375 H&H I'm respecting the bear. I think a .338 Winchester is enough gun. At 20 feet the "victim" did well to get a good hit on the bear due to the fact that he had a scope and could not use it in time. Many recommend pepper spray and I don't disagree but in this case there would have been no time to use it. I still think there is more "shock and awe" from a .73 caliber 700 to 800 grain slug at point blank range.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,717 Posts
Big heavy large diamenter slugs can certainly (as I've witnessed) slow a bear down enough for one to get another try. Can't say the same for smaller projectiles
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
224 Posts
the .375 H&H shoots a relatively small bullet, only 300 grains typically. For a bear i'd want something atleast 400 grains, preferrably 500-600 grains in a full metal jacket of solid of some sort.

I'd rather have my .45-70 with a 405 grain punch bullet clocked at 2100 fps with a solid bras punch bullet, than a .375 H&H 300 grain bullet going 2600 fps. OR a buffalo bore FMJ 500 grainer going at 1700fps
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
224 Posts
For bear i'd want something in the .40-50 caliber range: any of the following

.416 ruger or .416 rigby
.458 win mag or .458 lott
.45-70 with buffalo bore or grizzly or hot handloads with an FMJ or hardcast
.500 nitro express
.500 smith and wesson with hot loads
12 gauge shotgun with hot 1oz or larger slugs out of a rifled barrel

The key with bears is penetration and size, you want a big bullet that will be able to punch thru the massive layer of fat and muscle and bones to reach the heart
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,717 Posts
A 12 Guage loaded with Dixe Slugs would be hard to beat, better than my 416 Rigby IMHO
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
I've never hunted anywhere near this kind of animal, but would think that the idea is to break bone, the theory being if he can't close off 51 feet in a split second, I would have a chance to add more lead to him or her. I would think that the two hunters brought enough gun, but waited too long to use it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,852 Posts
You will get lots of replies and opinions on this one;). I can only say that this past spring I went to Alaska on a bear hunt (black bear). We were in the foothills of the Alaskan range NW of Anchorage. My Buddy and I were dropped off in a spike camp after a several hour ATV ride away from the outfitter's lodge which was, of course, accessible only by float plane. In other words we were alone in the Alaskan bush. The outfitter had been successful one month earlier with his grizzly hunts in the same area, going 3 for 4. A ten footer, nine footer and an 8 1/2 footer were what they harvested.

I was lucky enough to see a large grizzly at a distance, something I had hoped for, along with about a dozen black bears and some of those were very close. I own a good number of rifles that would have been adequate to excellent for the hunt we were on. I chose my BLR in .450 Marlin. I liked the frontal area over my .325WSM, 338/06, .35 Whelen, .350 RM, or 9.3x62. I never once felt nervous when it was in my hands, even when walking in 8' alder thickets. It was, of course, a constant companion never being more than 5' away (well, after our first close bear encounter on day one, anyway), including being right beside me as I slept inside the 8X8' tent that was our entire spike camp. Just one man's opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
602 Posts
Brenneke has issues a recall of some of their 12 gauge Black Magic slugs. SOme of them heve been loaded with little or no powder. Go to the Brenneke website to check lot numbers.

Kudu40
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,054 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
"A 12 Guage loaded with Dixe Slugs would be hard to beat, better than my 416 Rigby IMHO"
+1 to that
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,784 Posts
A .375 H&H is absolutely, beyond any doubt, sufficient for any bear that walks.

You will, however, have to hit something with it that will be sufficient to stop it. CNS shots are the only shots that will instantaneously shut things down. Breaking bones can immobilize, even if it doesn't kill instantly, and a proper bullet from .375 H&H can break any bones in any bear, IF you hit them. So can many other cartridges.

Everything else will take time unless it can have the effect one gets from say a .22-250 on a Richardson's ground squirrel. But nothing that can be fired from the shoulder will do that to a bear. In a very short time a bear can cover lots of ground and do fatal damage.

So the question is not what caliber is sufficient, there are lots of them actually; the question is how do you hit what you must hit to stop it? Nothing will work if you miss.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
103 Posts
couldn t get the news clip to come up..i don t take to cold weather [or hot,like i use to].
so i live in a relatively mild climate..n.c.
but i figure if me an an mad mamma grizz crossed paths at 20 yrds,id just be dinner..
she would just slap my head off an eat the rest of me when she chose to..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,717 Posts
A forty year-old Alaskan hunter from Anchorage by the name of Scott Oberleitner decided that he and a buddy would go to Kodiak Island to hunt the Sitka black-tailed deer. He had hunted there before on many past occasions and was quite familiar with encountering bear. Most hunters observe bears while hunting deer on the Island. However, usually close encounters either end in bears gradually retreating, or bluff-charging. Bluff-charging is what happens when bears act like they're going to charge, but suddenly stop, causing people to move away. By doing this, Kodiak bears create adequate distance between themselves and the deer hunters, they then abscond with the hunter's killed deer, for the scavanged meat. Apparently, Kodiak bears like venison, too!

After Scott and his friend killed a black-tail with their weapon of choice, a .375 H&H magnum, they began to approach their harvest. Suddenly, Scotts friend sees a sow with three cubs approaching the carcass and yells out to him, "Bear!". Scott then, instantly reacts by casually changing direction and moving away from the carcass. He now moves up towards the ridge of the mountain, instead of the valley below, containing their deer. Both hunters were well aware that outside of behaving casually, their weapons were their only salvation against a large Kodiak bear. They also knew that the possibility of escaping a charging bear by running was nihil, since the average bear can cover a distance of about 51 feet in one split second. Their strategy to act casually this time, doesn't work.

Suddenly without warning, the sow charges Scott. At first Scott thinks, "This just can't really be happening..." He can readily observe this bear accelerating towards him with maximum force. Scott instictively begins to raise his .375 H&H magnum as he begins to doubt if he has time to actually squeeze off a shot. As the bear pounces into the air for the attack, two guns go off simultaneously, both Scott and his partner mortally wound the bear. However, that doesn't stop the bear! The enraged sow, continues the momentum of the attack! As Scott turns away from the bear, the bear rips into his buttocks clear down to the hip bone. Next, the bear begins biting into Scotts leg and throws him onto a fallen tree log. His chest and ribs crack under the pressure. The bear then pauses and looks towards Scotts friend, his friend then levels his .375 Magnum and shoots the sow again finally putting an end to seeming relentless mauling. The bear raises up with one final roar and then collapses to her death. Luckily, Scott survives the attack to possibly hunt again...

Apparently, a Kodiak being hit with two large caliber rounds is insufficient for an enraged and cub-protecting Kodiak sow.

Just what caliber of round is sufficient for a classic Kodiak bear kill?

Reference:

http://alaskadispatch.com/dispatches/news/7403-alaska-bear-attack-a-

A properly placed bullet from a 30-06 is adequate. The 375's they were shooting are adequate. If the central nervous system or main support bones are missed then it may take a bit before hostile activities cease

The grizzly bear on the left of the picture came in while I was working a Moose kill. My partner fired first with a rifle and the bear went down by was up instantly, My rifle was out of reach, so I had pulled my revolver (475) from its shoulder holster and I fired 1 round that enterted at the back of the ribs abgling toward the off shoulder. The bears legs went out "spread eagle" style and that was that


 
  • Like
Reactions: Red Elk

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,715 Posts
You are mostly going to get replies from people who have not actually shot a bear :rolleyes:

Wish there was a way to limit replies to people who had some actual experience - maybe in the next version of the software.....

All that is just a way of saying that these sorts of pie-in-the-sky, pot-stirring threads rarely accomplish anything but starting big shouting matches. They are being closely scrutinized and will be shut down in an instant if it gets out of hand. Banning is not out of question if there is a history of troll-like behavior.

Frankly, I question the motives of those who would start these things, and the pour gasoline on the fire. It's not like our search function quit working, yesterday (cough, cough, ahem :rolleyes: )
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top