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Discussion Starter #1
As I've discussed in a separate thread in this forum I recently bought an old Belgian made Browning .22 semi-automatic rifle (the Japanese made version currently being sold is the SA-22) that needed repairs on its cartridge feed system.

In this thread I am asking if anyone has a parts drawing and service manual for the Belgian made version ?

I've looked all-over-the-Web and spoke with Browning's Customer Service (to no avail).

The only differences that I am aware of (between the older Belgian made rifle and the currently sold Japanese built rifle) pertain to the magazine feed system (that I am working on) and the rear sight (the one on my old rifle is fine plus it's simple to understand so I'm OK on it).

What I would like to see is a drawing that shows how the Belgian made Browning .22 semi-auto rifle's magazine feed system handles the need to lock the Magazine Assembly (the long tube with the even longer spring inside) in place when the magazine system is loaded with cartridges and how was the need to provide a retaining force provided to reduce the chance of the Magazine Assy sliding out of the outer tube when the Magazine Assy is pulled out to the distance needed to allow loading cartidges through the loading port in the side of the butt stock ?
 

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This is all I could find................................







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Discussion Starter #3
have built reproduction of outer mag tube

Hi Rangr44;

That's a different butt plate and Magazine Assembly than what I've previously seen. I wonder if that might be an earlier Belgian-built rifle than what I've got ?

My Belgian Browning .22 semi-auto rifle has a butt plate with some curve to it (to match the curve in the butt stock) but the edges are not turned-down as is the case with the butt plate in the photo you've sent.

Also the Magazine Assembly in your photo has a 'cast' look to it. The Magazine Assy tube that I've got looks more 'stamped-out' and does not have the circle-of-metal that your's does.

An oddity I'm trying to understand, as concerns the Magazine Assy I've got, is that it does NOT have a transversely-mounted pin near the handle which would allow it to be latched (locked) to a corresponding 'L-slot' in the outer magazine tube when the magazine is loaded (to prevent the Magazine Assy tube from being ejected due to the spring being compressed). The old rifle I'm working on was completley missng the outer magazine tube and so I've had to make guesses as to how it should function when I created an outer tube from brass tubing.

As a back-up, in case the outer tube I've made does not work correctly, I have a reproduction outer magazine tube on-order from Wisner's. The man at Wisner's practically argued with me that the Magazine Assy HAD to have a transversely-mounted pin to latch the magazine Assy. All that I can say is that, to the best of my ability to see (and feel), is that not only is there no transversely-mounted pin but there is no sign that there ever was one (i.e. no evidence of one have been broken-off or otherwise removed).

The only obvious way that the (old) Magazine Assy has to latch it in-place, or to provide any retarding force for that matter, is that there are two slight 'slices' taken out of the Magazine Assy up near the open end where the long spring projects out. I'm reasonably sure that those 'slices' are used in later designs of the rifle to provide the 'catching' action to prevent the Magazine Assy from easily falling out when it is fully extended during the loading process and in the outer magazine tube I've created from brass tubing I created a 'flap' (a directional latch) in the tubing to 'catch' those 'slices' when the Magazine Assy is fully inserted. It does work (though I haven't had the opportunity to load the magazine with live ammunition in a safe environment) but there is a 'grittiness' to the latching action and I think that I need to 'dress-down' the edge of the 'flap' to gracefully capture the 'slices' while allowing the Magazine Assy to smoothly slide-in when being inserted (i.e. going in towards the Receiver).
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Numrich doesn't have dwg of old design (either)

Have you tried www.e-gunparts.com (Numrich Arms) to see if they have a diagram?

Hi kdub;

When I first saw you question I thought "It isn't worth the trouble." (because on their Web Site they only show the 'newer', as built in Japan, version of the SA22) but then thought better and gave Numrich a call.

A lady at Numrich ('Sarah') checked with "one of the the guys in the warehouse" and then told me that, unfortunately, all they have is the single ('new' design) parts drawing that's posted on their Web Site.

(a bit more information)

I do have information on the original John Browning design in the form of the patents that cover the barrel-locking mechanism and the overall .22 semi-auto rifle (I wonder if you can patent a rifle design nowdays ?). The reason that I don't feel completely comfortable depending on the patent drawings is that there are some clear (though mostly minor) differences in the design shown in the patent and the design as it was built (that is the old Belgian rifle I'm working on).

In the .22 rifle patent dwgs John Browning showed the Magazine Assembly using a tangential locking pin to secure it (to an 'L-slot' in the outer magazine tube) once the magazine was loaded and I believe he used a slotted 'flap' (there seems to be one shown in a drawing) to provide some retaining force to hold the Magazine Assy when it is pulled out to its maximum extension to allow loading ammunition into the port (in the patent he showed a top-loading design whereas the old rifle I'm working on uses the commonly-seen side access loading port).
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
believe Belgian mfg'd Browning .22 rifle follows patent dwgs

(UPDATE)

I believe that it was Sir Winston Churchill who said that there were several times in his life in which he had been forced to eat-his-words (and had found them very nutritious). Churchill was a great man - I can only aspire to take on some of his virtues (vices take care of themselves).

What does this mean ? ..... I was wrong in a previous comment about the Magazine Assembly when I'd said that it did not originally have locking pins.

I did a very careful examination last night of the old Browning Magazine Assembly (the long tube with the even longer spring inside) that came with the old, Belgian made, Browning .22 semi-autiomatic rifle I'm working on. I found that it had previously had two transversely-mounted locking pins near the handle. The locations where the two pins had projected through the outer shell of the Magazine Assembly are all-but-invisible and the irregularities left look very much like the numerous spots-of-corrosion which liberally dot the outside of the assembly.

This means that the rifle's original outer magazine tube (completely missing when I bought the old rifle a few weeks ago) had 'L-shaped' slots where it projected out the rear of the butt stock. (These allowed the Magazine Assembly to be locked-in-place when the magazine was loaded.)

I now have some measure of confidence that the old rifle closely follows the layout discussed in John Browning's patent (# 1083384) - which is going to be 100 years old on Jan 6th of this coming year (2014).
 

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Also Have a Belgian Browning SA 22 & Looking for Parts

I recently purchased a used Belgian Browning SA 22 rifle and discovered it had a broken part as well as missing parts. I first went on line and ordered the replacement parts. When they arrived I noticed they did not resemble the parts on my gun. I contacted Browning Parts Department and they told me changes had been made since my 1963 manufactured gun.

The Barrel Adjusting Ring had some "teeth" missing. Looked like someone unfamiliar with the take down and adjustment system had used a tool to "pry" the ring loose, and broke some of the teeth out. Unfortunately the missing teeth were in the exact location where the barrel lock needed to hold the adjusting ring from moving, so I couldn't tighten the barrel down. I ordered a new Barrel Adjusting Ring but noticed the new ring had the teeth the entire depth of the ring. My Barrel Adjusting Ring had teeth only half way from back to front on the depth of the ring.

Also, the barrel lock on my gun is solid with one "tooth" that locks in the teeth of the adjusting ring. The new one had a detent where an additional spring and follower were supposed to go. The parts dept told me the new Barrel Lock now has a separate follower and spring that causes a "click" when the barrel adjusting ring is turned. On my gun, when you push the lock forward there's no "click," as the adjusting ring turns freely. That solid tooth on the lock clears the teeth that's only on the back half of the adjusting ring, and the ring turns until you reach the proper tightness. Then you push the lock backwards into the notch in the receiver and that aligns the teeth on the lock and ring, keeping the ring from turning.

If you don't own a Browning SA 22, sorry for all this description mumbo-jumbo.

Browning told me the new parts would work on my older gun, but I would have to purchase all the new parts for both the adjusting and locking systems, including barrel adjusting ring, barrel lock ring, barrel lock, barrel lock spring plunger, barrel lock spring, barrel adjusting ring follower spring, and barrel adjusting ring follower.

Nothing like changing the designs so now I need 7 new parts to replace a few older ones.

Also, I ordered a new rear sight because it had a nice white diamond painted on the blade below the V-notch. Thought that might help my 64 year old, diabetic eyes when trying to set the tiny front sight blade in the notch. I guess they also changed the rear sight dovetail specifications on the new guns, as the new rear sight slipped right through the dovetail cut in the barrel without the slightest bit of tension. Not even close to being the same size.

I too would like to locate a nice parts drawing of the older Belgium guns. I plan on keeping and shooting this nice older gun and would like to be knowledgeable about parts differences between the older and newer guns.

There's also a small hole in the rear-bottom of the forend that's below and parallel to the barrel. Nothing on the new parts diagram showing if anything goes in that hole.

Rod
 

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Discussion Starter #10
check w/ Art's Gun & Sports Shop for parts

Rod;

It might be worthwhile to check with Art's Gun & Sports Shop in Hillsboro, Missouri. (Art's Gun & Sports Shop, Inc.)

He has a couple of very interesting YouTube videos on the Browning .22 semi-auto rifle (the first is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CkyZv4_GB0) and when I spoke with him he seemed very knowledgable concerning the different versions from year's past (my Belgian made Browning 22 rifle has a different sized cartridge stop compared to the current design).

73

Paul, WB5AGF
 

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Talked to Art's Son Today

Paul,

Thanks for the heads up. I called and talked to Art's son. He's looking for an original "old style" barrel adjusting ring for me so I don't have to purchase 7 "new style" Japan parts to convert the adjusting and locking systems on my SA 22.

Art's son told me Art was previously a gunsmith for Browning.

Also, I noticed your Ham Radio Call Sign next to your name. N4ROD is my call sign. Got my first "conditional novice" license in 1963. My license came in the mail Nov. 20th. I was in the 9th grade and by the time I got my gear and long wire set up it was the morning of the 22nd. I skipped school that Friday so I could stay home and work the world via CW for my first day on the air. That was the day President Kennedy was assassinated and the airwaves were full of discussions. Quite a "first day" for a 14 year old Ham Radio Operator!

Rod

SK
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Belgian Browning .22 semi-auto rifle has non-std cartridge stop

You know the saying about how you don't learn anything when an experiment works ? In an effort a couple of days ago I would have been willing to have not gained knowledge but instead would rather have had the thing work.

My old Belgian Browning .22 semi-auto rifle is drilled inside the receiver housing to use a slightly differently dimensioned cartridge stop than is used in current production rifles and I was trying to modify a current design cartridge stop (bought from MidWest Gun Supply a few weeks ago) to get it to work. I believe that the overall length of the cartidge stop (from pivot point to the cam surface) is OK but the 'stop' (that extends from between the pivot and cam ends and does the actual retarding of the next cartridge) needs to be slightly closer to the pivot end than is the case with the current design. I was able to file away some of the 'stop' so that the current design cartridge stop would fit down into the pivot hole and the hole that is drilled to provide access for the stop to the cartridge channel but the remaining stop surface does not extend quite far enough to sufficiently engage the cartridges to properly prevent them from being pushed towards the breech if the magazine spring is significantly compressed (as is the case when several cartridges are loaded).

I tried fabricating a slight extension on the stop using JB Weld (I left a 'glob' to cure for almost two days) and then filing away diligently to where it would fit into the receiver cartridge stop mounting holes but when that was done there was so little JB Weld left that its strength (and perhaps its hardness) was insufficient and it broke off during tests I conducted to see how the cartridge stop action functioned as the breech block (which engages the cartridge stop cam with a machined slot in its top) was moved between fully closed to fully open.

Art Isacsson said (I spoke with him a couple of weeks past) that he had a drawer full of cartridge stops and told me to send the receiver to him but I would really like to see if I can complete the needed repairs so I'm going to press on a little further before throwning-in-the-towel and sending the parts off to Art.

If I had the courage I'd look into silver soldering as a way to add a solid metal extension to the stop but that may be just asking-for-trouble.

- Me
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Dallas Browning Collector Society Says Use Art Isacsson

(This is a comment I got today at the gun show in Dallas from a guy manning the Browning Collector's Society table.)

I told the guy at the table that I was working on an old Belgian made Browning .22 semi-auto rifle and was having trouble making a functioning cartridge stop from a current production item. Then I told him that I'd been talking with Art Isacsson a couple of weeks ago, and that Art had said for me to ship him the receiver and he'd look at it.

The guy manning the Browning Collector's Society table then began to grin and said that Art did all his work and he thought that I should ship my old Browning .22 rifle off to Art (in Hillsboro, Missouri).

It's good to hear that Art has a good reputation but I still wish that I could get the old rifle working myself.

- Me
 

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I finally threw in the towel on finding an original "old style" barrel adjusting ring to replace the one on my 1963 rifle that had 3 teeth missing. I contacted 10-12 companies and everyone had the "new style" adjusting ring. One company swore they had the old style, so I bought it. When it arrived it was, of course, the new style. It went back. Nick Isacsson, Art's son said he had an old style but it was rusted, needed work and rebluing. I opted to go with the new style. So purchased the 7 parts needed to convert the locking and adjusting systems to the new style. After they were all installed it worked really well. The new style "click" adjustment is actually a little finer and more accurate than the old style "free turning" adjusting ring. While I had it apart, and since the gun is 50 years old, I replaced the recoil spring, firing pin spring, sear spring, extractor spring, and cartridge guide spring. Also put on a new front sight as the bead was missing on the existing sight. And a previous owner had reinstalled the rear sight backwards, I guess after removing a scope. Turned it around and painted a tiny white dot just below the V notch. Now I can place the brass bead just above the white dot for better sight alignment with my aging eyes. Got the barrel adjusted perfectly and test fired it with 6 different types of ammo. Works fine with high speed, standard speed, and subsonic rounds. Glad this project is over and the gun is ready to enjoy. Hope to be shooting it for a long time. I'll still keep looking for an original old style adjusting ring as I kept all the original parts in case I find one and want to put it back into original specs.

Rod
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
A Working Rifle Is The Best Kind ..

I finally threw in the towel on finding an original "old style" barrel adjusting ring to replace the one on my 1963 rifle that had 3 teeth missing.

I'll still keep looking for an original old style adjusting ring as I kept all the original parts in case I find one and want to put it back into original specs.

Rod

Rod;

Your comments made me smile because I have been considering the worthwhile-ness (?) of a functioning rifle over one that is 'correct' (as it left the designer's drafting board).

I put aside my work on the old Belgian made Browning .22 semi-auto rifle a couple of weeks past as I was getting too wound-up over the inner-argument of function vs correctness.

The need to get the original style magazine-tube design working is not a stopping point as I can 'see' various ways in which it could be (fairly) readily fixed and made functional.

No .... instead it is the connundrum over what-to-do with regard to the cartridge stop that has me .... stopped (at least for now).

The Belgian made rifle has slightly different dimensions for the cartridge stop holes that are drilled in the 'ceiling' (?) of the receiver assembly. The current rifle design has the 'access hole' for the cartridge stop (where the 'stop' pokes through and holds the next cartridge from moving towards the breech) roughly mid-way between the pivot shaft and the other end of the cartridge stop that has the 'cam' (which engages the machined groove in the top of the breech block). This old Belgian made rifle has the 'access hole' slightly closer to the pivot shaft so that a current production cartridge stop will not fit. As 'reported' previously I have filed-down a current production cartridge stop so that it will fit the old design but now the actual 'stop' (I found) does not stick through into the cartridge raceway far enough to securely snag the next cartridge and prevent it from moving towards the breech when the magazine spring is heavily compressed.

Do I : a.) figure a way to add a bit of length to the modified cartidge stop ? b.) (this is a scary thought just recently considered) try to widen the hole in the receiver so that a current production cartridge stop will fit unmodified ? or c.) throw-in-the-towel and ship the whole she-bang off to Art Isaccson and let him figure it out ?

I suspect (quite strongly) that 'c' is the most sensible thing to do but ..... I'd sure like to get the old rifle working myself ..... (sigh)

- Paul
 

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Clint (Eastwood) said it best: "A man's GOT to come to terms with his limitations". :p




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PaulN

Hello, Can you send me any info you have on that "Top" loading 22 auto?
I have one, and can only find limited info on it Other than a 1915 date(I got from a reprint of a catalog) and that it is called an "A" Model and the side loader is a "B" Model. but no Idea on the start of the B Start year. I would love to know the born on date of my "A Model" top loader. I have been in E-mail touch with Browning but no luck. I tried your link to Art but it comes up as an Error. and I can't access Utube, at work. will try tonight.
I am putting together an Inheritance package of my collection. Most trouble is with early S&W and this FN (only reference to Browning = is browning Patent, on the side).
Will have to look it over tonight, as to the mag tube. Might be a replacement, as this could be a 100 year old rifle.
 
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