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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I understand that the BH 209 maybe a hotter fire than the 777. Does anyone have any idea on how these would be matched grain for grain? For instance, would 100 gr. of 209 be equal to 110 gr. of 777, or something like that? Has anyone made comparisons with a chronograph? Thank you.
 

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Triple Seven 2f ... Hornady 250 grains SST.... one hundred grains pellets .... 1785 fps
Triple Seven 2f ... Hornady 250 grains SST.... one hundred grains loose ..... 1835 fps
BlackHorn209..... Hornady 250 grains SST.... one hundred grains loose....... 1943 fps

I got these numbers off the different powder sites. Western Powder BlackHorn 209 and Hodgdon's Triple Seven load data manual. On some of the forums with people actually shooting over their chronographs, they found that there was very little difference between the two powders.

That extra 100 fps that BlackHorn is producing is nothing. If you are thinking of changing powders consider the cost of the powder, the amount of powder you get in a jug, the temperament of the powders, and what your rifle likes at present. In my case I also have to consider availability of the powders.

I shot off two pounds of BlackHorn powder. It has to be one of the best powders out there. But remember, you clean with solvents and no water. Triple Seven cleans with water. Accuracy was about equal with both rifles. I had no ignition problems with either powders. I can not get blackhorn 209 in my area. And Blackhorn comes in a 10 ounce jug. Triple Seven comes in a 16 ounce jug.
 

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Question cayugad.

Was there a "crud ring" at the bottom of the barrel using BH 209?

I have used 777 alot. Good stuff, but it seems to leave a build up of residue in the area where the powder sits behind the bullet. Does BH 209 have a residue build up problem?
 

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The one thing BlackHorn209 will do (in some cases) if plug your breech plug. A carbon like substance builds up in the breech plug and actually clogs it. People have to in some cases drill out their plug. I never noticed a crud ring with BlackHorn 209. Actually I would shoot it and not swab the barrel. When I swabbed the accuracy declined.

Yes Triple Seven leaves a crud ring. A simple swab of the barrel in most cases removes it. I swab between shots most the time, so that is not a problem to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
cayagud - Thank you for the response. The bullet manufacturer (Precision) publishes ballistic results based on using loose 777. I'm guessing for comparative results I might get away w/ slightly less of the BH209. I don't have a 200 yard range, or a chrono; hence my question.

density1 - With my .45 caliber CVA Kodiak I got very similar groups out to 100 yards with both 209 & Triple Seven. I used Winchester 209 primers in all cases which some say is a no no w/ 777.

I did experience the breech plug clogging w/ the BH209 and the crud ring w/ the 777. In the end, with accuracy being equal, I prefer the BH 209. No wiping between shots, but I do have a very small diameter drill bit that's on a handle, and fits the breech plug fire hole. I use it every 10 shots or so at the range. Takes about 2 seconds. I suppose a strightened paper clip would work. Previous to that, after about 30 shots the gun unlocked upon firing. I sent it to CVA; they replaced the entire lock and trigger assembly no charge, and recommended making sure that the breech plug hole is kept free and open. No wiping between shots with the 209, and I don't worry about the BH 209 attracting any moisture as with the 777. It costs more, but overall it's worth it to me. Thanks again for the input, I appreciate it. Guy
 

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Clogs up the breech plug? How many shots does it take to do this?
Depends on the rifle and the breech plug. Be known that Blackhorn 209 will not shoot well out of all inline rifles. Open breech rifles like the Wolverine, Bighorn, Staghorn, Buckhorn Magnum, and others do not shoot BlackHorn well.

I tried shooting it out of my Black Diamond XR and while it did fire the powder off, it also blew a chunk of primer back at me that cut in my forehead. The BD is an open breech design.

If you have a closing breech like the Omega, Triumph, Encore, Optima, Kodiak, Accura, etc..they fire the powder just fine.

I liked BlackHorn Powder but it is too hard to find. Plus I am a tight wad. I shoot black powder 95% of the time.
 

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Interesting thread - I've been curious about BH209. I shoot 777 exclusively these days, and I'm quite happy with it, but I could see advantages to not having to swab the bore periodically.

Side comment: I've never seen the crud ring so many talk about with 777. It must occur exclusively with 209 primer-fired rifles, probably from the hotter ignition. I've been using percussion caps and haven't experienced the "crud ring".
 

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Subscribing here plus I have a question. Is Pyrodex not favored by anyone here? Its the only powder I've ever shot and never had any problems in my Omega. I had a couple miss fires in my New Englander with normal caps but I think thats not abnormal right?

I'm also a cheap wad and unless I can see a viable reason to change other then cleaning, which to me is no problem, I'll stick with Pyrodex. What say Ye'all :)
 

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Pyrodex is a great powder. I shot Pyrodex out of rifles for years and years. When I first started shooting all there was out there was black powder. All of us shot Goex. Then Pyrodex hit the market and many of us shot that out of our cap locks for years. Triple Seven and APP appeared and of course I had to try that too. Remember Clean Shot (APP) when it came out. I used to shoot that a lot. But I always had, and still do have Pyrodex around. If a rifle is fussy I try Pyrodex or black powder. Normally that will tame a fussy rifle. Pyrodex is a good powder. Just be sure you clean up the rifle after you shoot. It is the most corrosive powder out of all of them.
 

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Pyrodex is a great powder. I shot Pyrodex out of rifles for years and years. When I first started shooting all there was out there was black powder. All of us shot Goex. Then Pyrodex hit the market and many of us shot that out of our cap locks for years. Triple Seven and APP appeared and of course I had to try that too. Remember Clean Shot (APP) when it came out. I used to shoot that a lot. But I always had, and still do have Pyrodex around. If a rifle is fussy I try Pyrodex or black powder. Normally that will tame a fussy rifle. Pyrodex is a good powder. Just be sure you clean up the rifle after you shoot. It is the most corrosive powder out of all of them.

Thanks for the reply and info. What do you use for cleaning besides water? I've read a lot of guys use soap but I'm afraid to because its also corrosive, or is there a special kind of soap? Also do you treat the barrel with anything?
 

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For Black Powder, Pyrodex, Triple Seven, APP, Pinnacle all I need is simple soap and water like you'd do the dishes in. I personally only use water baths on traditional rifles. That's because I can submerge the bolster/drum/nipple and pump the HOT soap and water through the barrel. After I get clean patches that way, I like to put some alcohol (isopropyl) on a patch and swab the bore. Normally it will come out gray. So I run a couple more until they are nice and clean. Then I do something most people do not do...

I have a tea kettle on the stove. And the water is boiling. I take the barrels outside and pour boiling water through them filling the barrel and letting it drain a couple times. Wearing leather gloves, while the barrel is very hot, I take it back in the house and run a solvent or alcohol patch through the barrel 99% of the time they come back clean. I then dry patch the barrel while hot. Anyone who was forced to do dishes as a kid knows, hot water seems to dry off the dishes by itself. With the bore dry but still hot, I then run an oil patch through the bore and it will draw that oil into the pores as the barrel cools. I have yet to rust a barrel that way or damage one. Some of my rifles are over 40 years old. The bores are still rust free.

On an inline water baths are not practical. So I take the barrel out of the stock. I have an old dish soap bottle filled with soap and water. I saturate a patch and push that from the breech out the muzzle. I do about three of them. That will take out the majority of the fouling. Then I like to use a solvent patch. My solvent I use now is Montana X-treme Cowboy solvent. I swab the barrel with that. If the barrel has not been scrubbed in a long time, I will dip a brush (nylon) in the solvent and do the bore with that. Then another solvent patch and finally I dry patch the barrel clean. Then an oil patch is worked in short strokes through the barrel.

In both cases after you clean the other parts, you can put the rifles back together, wipe off the outsides and you have a nice clean protected rifle.

When I shoot Blackhorn 209, I take the rifle apart and run patches of Montana X-treme Cowboy solvent through it until it is clean. Then I dry patch the bore and again, oil the bore with a modern gun oil.

Because some powders react to petroleum products in a negative manner, before you shoot next time, apply some alcohol to a patch and swab the bore to remove the oil. Then push a dry patch to the bottom of the breech and pop a cap or primer until you get burn marks on the patch. That will also blow any oil that might have accumulated in the bolster/drum or breech plug into that patch, so it can be removed.
 

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Depends on the rifle and the breech plug. Be known that Blackhorn 209 will not shoot well out of all inline rifles.

I tried shooting it out of my Black Diamond XR and while it did fire the powder off, it also blew a chunk of primer back at me that cut in my forehead.
Sounds like your flash hole has burned out of your BP, if you get that kind of blowback.
 

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As for cleaning my muzzle loaders, Rusty Duck Black Off can't be beat! Quick and easy, scrub and wipe
Smells like rubbing alcohol but cleans light a marvel.
I shoot 777 and Goex.
If ya'll got something better, Please let me know about it.
Thanks,
Jimmy
 

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I just shot some Alliant Black MZ over the weekend. I have used Black Powder, Pyrodex RS, Triple7, and the BH209.
My most recent 2 shooting sessions was the BH209, Pyrodex and the Black MZ. I am impressed with the Black MZ as I didn't have to swab between shots. I read an article that showed BP, Pyrodex, and Black MZ. Black MZ had around 100 to 150 fps faster. I just started using it and I am still working up some loads but I think it may be my go to powder. I am not using the BH209 as I am using #11 percussion caps. The 209 I shot was in an Optima that I am sitting to the side for now. The price of the Black MZ is about $28 per pound. I like the Pyrodex price better and I may go back to it later. But for now due to the fact that I don't have to swab after each shot it is better. I am using Winchester Mag caps and have no ignition problems.
 

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Sounds like your flash hole has burned out of your BP, if you get that kind of blowback.
Actually the hammer striker design of the T/C Black Diamond XR is not made for BlackHorn 209. Also the nipple has expansion holes that the caps and 209 primers plug. So it is simple physics. That back pressure with nothing designed to hold the igniton system will fail and the results will be your cap, or primer MAY (and did in my case) blow the center out of a primer back into my glasses and forehead. This incident was my fault entirely. I wanted to shoot the powder and picked the wrong kind of rifle ignition system to do it with.

Out of my Knight Disc and CVA Optima no problems with safety concerns.

A real good clean for anything other then Black Horn. Remember no water based products when shoot Black Horn 209. I like a product called Simple Green mixed with water. It really cleans the fouling. And so does simple Dish Soap water.
 
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