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Supposedly its non-corrosive. Which is why I'm real interested. Has anyone tried it?
Blackhorn 209
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Nevermind....
I looked at Blackhorn's site. They say to use standard shotshell primers as ML 209 primers aren't hot enough. I would suspect the no.11 caps aren't going to be hot enough either.
Maybe it's time I "upgrade" from my Remington 700ML....That or find a conversion plug that doesn't seem to exist.
Thanks.
I looked at Blackhorn's site. They say to use standard shotshell primers as ML 209 primers aren't hot enough. I would suspect the no.11 caps aren't going to be hot enough either.Maybe it's time I "upgrade" from my Remington 700ML....That or find a conversion plug that doesn't seem to exist.
Thanks.
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I had a Remington 700ML Stainless. Accuracy was excellent with saboted bullets, 777 powder, and a percussion cap. When I decided to "upgrade" the plug to the shotshell primer version, my accuracy fell apart. Sometimes it's good to leave well enough alone.
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Dixie is testing Blackhorn 209 powder now. The results look outstanding indeed. We are also planning to test Black Dot later.
There is no crud buildup (like 777) with Blackhorn 209 at all. Our accuracy load at present is 90 grs (by volume) of Blackhorn 209 - WW 209 primer - Lehigh .458" 265/275 gr HP in a orange sabot. We will be field testing this combo during the upcoming Florida ML season. The rifles are Tradition's Yukon and Pursuit XL .....and one TC Encore.
Regards, James
There is no crud buildup (like 777) with Blackhorn 209 at all. Our accuracy load at present is 90 grs (by volume) of Blackhorn 209 - WW 209 primer - Lehigh .458" 265/275 gr HP in a orange sabot. We will be field testing this combo during the upcoming Florida ML season. The rifles are Tradition's Yukon and Pursuit XL .....and one TC Encore.
Regards, James
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I have shot a lot of Blackhorn 209. First off.. it is POWERFUL. When you shoot it, you know. So if your shooting 100 grains of black powder, then you need to reduce that to 80 grains of Black Horn 209. Because of the way it ignites, you should use a good 209 primer. I was using Winchester W209 and never had a problem with making it go off. But they tell you not to use the low powder primers made to reduce crud rings in muzzleloaders. Just not enough flame. Also not all inlines will shoot BH209. Certain shapes of the breech plug will give you ignition problems. If your shooting an open breech rifle like a CVA Staghorn, or T/C Black Diamond.. while it will go off, it might blow the primer back in your face. So I suggest only a closed breech system like the Omega, Triumph, Accura, etc.
Also you can not use water to clean the rifle. Solvent must be used. This stuff does not like water at all. Hoppes, or other quality solvents will take the fouling right out of the barrel. Also you do not have to swab between shots. You just keep shooting.
Accuracy with this powder is excellent. It must be compressed very tightly. And also a tight fitting sabot makes better accuracy then a loose. In fact too loose and you do not get the power out of the powder. But if your find the right charge, and the right projectile. This will seem like the greatest thing you ever shot.
Personally I have seen the price drop on this powder which is a good thing. If it were sold locally near me I would shoot a lot more of it, but I can get the same accuracy and power with other powders.
Also you can not use water to clean the rifle. Solvent must be used. This stuff does not like water at all. Hoppes, or other quality solvents will take the fouling right out of the barrel. Also you do not have to swab between shots. You just keep shooting.
Accuracy with this powder is excellent. It must be compressed very tightly. And also a tight fitting sabot makes better accuracy then a loose. In fact too loose and you do not get the power out of the powder. But if your find the right charge, and the right projectile. This will seem like the greatest thing you ever shot.
Personally I have seen the price drop on this powder which is a good thing. If it were sold locally near me I would shoot a lot more of it, but I can get the same accuracy and power with other powders.
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From what I understand, Blackhorn says to use shotgun 209 primers, not ML209 primers.
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Blackhorn 209 - Nitrocellulose based?
Apparently Western Powder has managed to create what amounts to a bulk "smokeless powder" with some potassium nitrate and sulfur added. According to the article, Western Powder also no longer claims Blackhorn 209 is non-corrosive.
http://home.earthlink.net/~manzanovalph/Blackhorn209.pdf
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/11/is-blackhorn-209-really-a-smokeless-powder/
Apparently Western Powder has managed to create what amounts to a bulk "smokeless powder" with some potassium nitrate and sulfur added. According to the article, Western Powder also no longer claims Blackhorn 209 is non-corrosive.
http://home.earthlink.net/~manzanovalph/Blackhorn209.pdf
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/11/is-blackhorn-209-really-a-smokeless-powder/
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Funny, according to the western powders web site it's listed as non corrosive.
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I honestly do not think there is any powder that is "non corrosive." After reading that article Ralph posted, it makes sense why when I was emailing back and fourth with with Don at Western Powder about BlackHorn 209 he pointed out several times that no water was needed to clean it, and no water should be used to swab it. Makes sense now. Thank you Ralph.
If you remember a few things about the powder, remember this; the hotter the 209 primer the better, be careful of the breech design, the breech plug, and compress that load in a good tight setting... this stuff is the real deal. It will really shoot. One other thing I forgot to mention. When I was testing it, the first couple shots out of the barrel were not as accurate as say... shots 3-10. That is were they really got accurate for me. Maybe the barrel needed to foul out a little.
If you remember a few things about the powder, remember this; the hotter the 209 primer the better, be careful of the breech design, the breech plug, and compress that load in a good tight setting... this stuff is the real deal. It will really shoot. One other thing I forgot to mention. When I was testing it, the first couple shots out of the barrel were not as accurate as say... shots 3-10. That is were they really got accurate for me. Maybe the barrel needed to foul out a little.
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I'm looking forward...
...to trying Blackhorn 209.
More information on long term use of Blackhorn 209:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/SpecialReport2.html
Now if Ruger would just bring out a .50 caliber, 5 shot Old Army that uses 209 primers...
...to trying Blackhorn 209.
More information on long term use of Blackhorn 209:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/SpecialReport2.html
Now if Ruger would just bring out a .50 caliber, 5 shot Old Army that uses 209 primers...
I switched to Blackhorn from Triple Seven with no drop off in performance. Actually, Blackhorn loads are a little faster than T7 with equal weights. But what makes Blackhorn amazing is that no swabbing between shots is required and to clean up you can use a solvent based product. I use Hoppe's No. 9. I never liked putting water into my firearm. Also, it supposedly has an indefinite shelf life and does not absorb water out of the air like some black powder substitutes. I use CCI 209 primers and have had no misfires or trouble whatsoever with my Omega. However, I've heard that some shooters using other muzzle loaders may have to enlarge the fire channel in their breach plug.
Good luck!
Good luck!
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Although I like period muzzle loaders, Lately I have been working to see just how far I could go with advanced components in a modern ML.
I picked the Traditions Pusuit break open - Lehigh .458" 275 gr - Blackhorn 209 powder - MMP orange sabot.
I found the best accuracy at 90 grs (by volume). his load grouped at 2" - 5 shots - 100 yards bench rest.
As for the chamber plug.....see attachment....James
I picked the Traditions Pusuit break open - Lehigh .458" 275 gr - Blackhorn 209 powder - MMP orange sabot.
I found the best accuracy at 90 grs (by volume). his load grouped at 2" - 5 shots - 100 yards bench rest.
As for the chamber plug.....see attachment....James
Attachments
Has anyone used this powder in a cva optima? I bought some and I'm having ignition trouble, I get hangfires and no fires. Sometimes the second primer will set it off, but once I had to pull the breech plug and empty the bore. That time I had to pull the breech plug I found the bullet and powder charge had been pushed up the bore about 2 inches but no boom, yes the load was seated in the first place. 100gr of BH209 and a hornady sabot, cci standard 209 primers, flash hole was clear every time. Do I need a magnum primer or to alter my breech plug? At this point I sure wouldn't trust it to hunt with, I'm using triple 7 for now, never had a bit of trouble with that. Thanks
They claim that you should not use magnum primers.
I have optima pro but never shot it in my cva. I have never had a misfire in my Omega. Shot a big 10 point with it this year...
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Over the past few years, we have learned a great desl about high perforamnce muzzleloaders indeed. Whilel the rag writers have had a hay-day harping about various new sub powders, some others have worked very hard at finding out just what it took to make a ML shot like a modern cartridge gun.
This in no way takes away from the traditionalist with sidehammers guns, etc.
We now have a bulk smoleless powder (Blackhorn 209) that acts like a smoleless powder. Yes, it is harder in ignite, but not more than any other smokeless powder. Yes. we have learned what design breech plug is needed.
We face the same problem with Blackhorn as with other smokeless powders. If one is getting the load to move forward and not lighting off....it happens in shotgun shells. When it happens, you have pressure, but not enough heat!.
Now, close examination of the sample I posted....itis critical that the passage way is the correct size! If the hole is too small...pressure but not enough heat. If he hole is too large....ignition, but 209 primer setback that might tie up a break open gun.
I tried Blackhorn 209 in my ROA's....I could not get it to fire with bronze Trsco-Ampco nipples.....however it would fire in regular nipples that had been open up some....but there was severe flash by showing too much fire/pressure coming back. This was corrected some by using the plastic cap guards.
Bottom line is simple.....if you go with Blackhorn 209....be sure the flash hole is as shown on the attachment I posted.
It seems to me as being somewhat backward when those use older powder designs (including black) in these modern high performance ML's.
As I said before....decide what you are trying to accomplish and then make some small modifications.
I still hunt/shoot my sidehammer guns, but load them with powders designed for that type of firearm.
In this case one must decide whether they are Fish or Fowl.
Regards, James
This in no way takes away from the traditionalist with sidehammers guns, etc.
We now have a bulk smoleless powder (Blackhorn 209) that acts like a smoleless powder. Yes, it is harder in ignite, but not more than any other smokeless powder. Yes. we have learned what design breech plug is needed.
We face the same problem with Blackhorn as with other smokeless powders. If one is getting the load to move forward and not lighting off....it happens in shotgun shells. When it happens, you have pressure, but not enough heat!.
Now, close examination of the sample I posted....itis critical that the passage way is the correct size! If the hole is too small...pressure but not enough heat. If he hole is too large....ignition, but 209 primer setback that might tie up a break open gun.
I tried Blackhorn 209 in my ROA's....I could not get it to fire with bronze Trsco-Ampco nipples.....however it would fire in regular nipples that had been open up some....but there was severe flash by showing too much fire/pressure coming back. This was corrected some by using the plastic cap guards.
Bottom line is simple.....if you go with Blackhorn 209....be sure the flash hole is as shown on the attachment I posted.
It seems to me as being somewhat backward when those use older powder designs (including black) in these modern high performance ML's.
As I said before....decide what you are trying to accomplish and then make some small modifications.
I still hunt/shoot my sidehammer guns, but load them with powders designed for that type of firearm.
In this case one must decide whether they are Fish or Fowl.
Regards, James
I used BH209 today for the first time in my Encore 209 x 50. Great powder. I switched from 777 because I had to clean the bore every shot or it would shoot all over the place which was not a big deal as it would be "OK" for 2 shots in a pinch. My main concern with 777 is the heavy blowback in the breach area. The achilles heel of my Encore is the carbon steel firing pin bushing and firing pin (the rest of the gun is Stainless???). Blowback fouls this area and causes the firing pin to seize in the bushing and fail to retract. This prevents the gun from opening and risks firing pin damage when forced. The BH 209 reduced this fouling to just about zero so I'm wearing my party hat. I'm getting 6 inch groups @ 200 yds 16 inches low with a dead on sight in @ 100yds with 100gr(vol) BH209, 300gr .452 HTPs and MMP black sabots. My bore is tight with that bullet/sabot combo so I could only get 6 shots without a quick swab of the bore, one wet, one dry. This was because it was hard to load NOT because accuracy dropped off. (it didn't). Another tidbit was that the BH209 would shoot 2 inches low @ 100yds with a freshly cleaned bore. I think the slippery bore didn't offer enough resistance to build up the same pressure level as fouled bore, reducing velocity a bit. No chrony, just my gut. I raised the POI a bit and now @100yds I'm an inch low with a clean bore and an inch high on subsequent shots. Overall I'm delighted with BH209 and will be using it on my hunt this year.
Hi, folks. I'm new to the Forum, and I'm just now getting back into muzzleloading after a 3-year hiatus. I'm interested in your insights/suggestions in relation to the following email excerpt I sent to Don at Western Powders this morning:
"I purchased a six-pack of Blackhorn measuring vials at Bass Pro and used those to measure out 90 volume test loads. However, on my scales, which I took care to calibrate with a test weight, those loads consistently weighed 70 grains, rather than 63, as mentioned in your email below. This 5 to 7 grain difference held true for 100, 110 and 120 volume loads (although I only fired 90 vol.). Can you think of a reason for this difference?
Using a brand new breech plug in my CVA Kodiak 209 Magnum .45 caliber muzzleloader, with CCI primers, I fired 8 test shots. On four of those shots, there was no perceptible delay between the primer and the powder firing: it was just like a rifle going off. However, on the other four shots, there was a noticeable – and somewhat startling – delay between the primer firing and the powder firing. I suppose the delay was somewhere around ½ second, but it seemed longer. This, of course, caused me to flinch, so most of those shots were flyers. Also, on all of the shots there were noticeable sparks and smoke emitted between the breech and the trigger mechanism. Again, I wonder if these conditions are normal. I don’t remember this happening with other primer/power combinations I have used, although it has been about three years since I last shot the gun.
On the plus side, I was delighted by how clean the barrel looked after 8 shots."
"I purchased a six-pack of Blackhorn measuring vials at Bass Pro and used those to measure out 90 volume test loads. However, on my scales, which I took care to calibrate with a test weight, those loads consistently weighed 70 grains, rather than 63, as mentioned in your email below. This 5 to 7 grain difference held true for 100, 110 and 120 volume loads (although I only fired 90 vol.). Can you think of a reason for this difference?
Using a brand new breech plug in my CVA Kodiak 209 Magnum .45 caliber muzzleloader, with CCI primers, I fired 8 test shots. On four of those shots, there was no perceptible delay between the primer and the powder firing: it was just like a rifle going off. However, on the other four shots, there was a noticeable – and somewhat startling – delay between the primer firing and the powder firing. I suppose the delay was somewhere around ½ second, but it seemed longer. This, of course, caused me to flinch, so most of those shots were flyers. Also, on all of the shots there were noticeable sparks and smoke emitted between the breech and the trigger mechanism. Again, I wonder if these conditions are normal. I don’t remember this happening with other primer/power combinations I have used, although it has been about three years since I last shot the gun.
On the plus side, I was delighted by how clean the barrel looked after 8 shots."
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I am at loos as to the difference in weighed weights you found. Maybe some runs of the powder are less dense or heavey. We have not run inti that in our tests.
Now....there have been some reports about te problem with the firingpin sticking in TC. My brother Clay had that trouble in his Encore. It appeared to be caused by blow back fouling.
Over the years we have learn quite a bit about 209 typr guns. e noe knoe the the hole between the 209 and the powder must be cleaned of all carbon/fouling and there has been an ideal size of te hole.
I have atttached again...the drawing of the ideal hole size.
Regards, James
Now....there have been some reports about te problem with the firingpin sticking in TC. My brother Clay had that trouble in his Encore. It appeared to be caused by blow back fouling.
Over the years we have learn quite a bit about 209 typr guns. e noe knoe the the hole between the 209 and the powder must be cleaned of all carbon/fouling and there has been an ideal size of te hole.
I have atttached again...the drawing of the ideal hole size.
Regards, James
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