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Discussion Starter #1
To all you experienced folks:

Please forgive my ignorance and asking of dumb questions.  But...

I'm wondering if the bore of of my rifle is actually getting clean.  I've been shooting some plinking loads in my 45-70 - some commercial cast stuff.  Due to the roughness of my unlapped bore and the .458 sized bullets, as well as estimated velocities of around 1500 fps with a plain base bullet, I'm getting some leading that comes out pretty easily using the copper pot-scrubber material trick.

However, after the lead is out, I alternate using patches on a good jag, and using a bore brush.  I've worked for hours, and after running the bore brush through 8 - 10 passes each time, I always get a patch that comes out grayish-black around the jag.  I've probably done upwards of 12 - 15 cycles at a time of patches and the bore brush.  I eventually just give up and figure that it's clean enough.  

I have tried, after cleaning, wetting the bore well with solvent, and letting it sit for a couple of hours.  The next patch is clean, but I still get a dark patch after running the bore brush through again.  I clean my brush with carbureter cleaner to make sure its not old residue that I'm seeing.

I have shot some jacketed stuff through it, 60 rounds that I bought before I was set up to reload for it, all but 6 rounds previous to switching to cast.  I cleaned it rigorously to make sure there was no jacket fouling, though I figured 60 rounds was insignificant as far as jacket fouling.

I read on a commercial bore cleaner's website, MPro7, that a light gray on the patch is carbon from the "pores" of the bore that will eventually go away?  I thought maybe it's the same thing.

Any thoughts?  Oh, I'm using Pro-Shot cleaning solvent, which seems to work much better than the Outers Nitro Solvent that I used to use.

Thanks for any help.  

Ray Floyd
 

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Ray,

Take this for what it's worth, but I'll state that the bore brush itself, with it's action of passing down an otherwise clean bore will result in the condition and situation you describe. Whether it's material from the brush itself namely dissolving/wearing off bronze or actual crud that is embedded in the brush from past cleanings getting into the bore again.

My feeling is that if with an otherwise fully swabbed/brushed out bore and the last patch comes out clean your finished. To verify as with jacket fouling, run a wet patch through, let it sit then run a dry patch through. If you get the telltale green/blue streaking, there is still jacket fouling in there. With lead fouling as you state, there can be some embedded in the toolmarks in your barrel. This isn't really leading in the purest sense of the word, but a different condition. Just clean as best you can and as your bore smooths out from firing or a lapping job the problem should disappear or be greatly reduced.

Like anything, cleaning can be carried to an extreme actually doing more harm than good in the long run. As Mr. Gates recommends, make youself up a bore guide with a drilled primer pocket in an old fired case if you clean from the breech end. You'll affect the accuracy of your barrel to the negative side far worse by banging the end of your cleaning rod into the chamber throat/leade than you will in leaving that last miniscule bit of fouling in your barrel.

Remember, bare metal, as in your bore will oxidize somewhat with or without oil on it. The oil/preservative just slows this process down from becoming full blown corrosion.

FWIW,

Regards

:cool:
 

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Ray...As always friend Contender covered the subject from A to Z! There is one thing that came up and Marshall and I were discussing it. All of the copper mesh scrubbers are not real copper! Cissey bought one and it turned out to be copper colored steel! Be sure what you have is copper. If in doubt, try a magnet on it.
Another little hint in breaking in barrels...Flitz on a tight patch does wonders on the pores in steel.
Best Regards, James
 

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Newbie question:

Why use a jag over a slotted tip for running a patch through the bore?

Question #2: what is the best material to use for patches?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Mr. Gates and Contender:

Thanks again for you invaluable information.  I have suspected that what I've seen on the patch after using the brush may be from the brush itself, or some sort of effect from the brush rubbing against the steel.  I started spraying the brush out periodically a while back to make sure it wasn't old fouling I was seeing.

I think that as long as there is no jacket fouling and no leading left in the bore, I'll leave it alone after a few brush passes.  I do worry about damaging the bore.  I always clean from the breech.  The "drilled-out case bore guide" sounds like a good idea.  The thing that worries me is pulling the rod and jag back through the bore without a patch or brush on it.  Makes me kind of nervous about the jag scratching the grooves.

I bought some jacket bullets to load up before I discovered Beartooth with the intention of shooting a bunch of them to smooth out the bore.  I may just try that and see if it helps with the leading.  I've seen where Mr. Stanton has stated that shooting a few hundred jacketed does the same thing as fire-lapping.

Mr. Gates:

Good to know about the mesh pads.   I'll check it out.  With the Flitz, do you just run the patch through a few dozen times to polish the bore?

Alan:

I think I can answer your question.  For one thing, using a jag requires a lot less patch material, particularly with bigger bores.  I use lots less material now.  Plus, the proper size jag creates a tighter fit than using a slotted tip, and pushes all the crud out the end of the barrel.  I've also read that its not good to use the slotted tip because you are pulling fouling back into the barrel.  I use old cut up white t-shirts.  The cotton flannel patches that you can buy in bulk work well too.

Thanks again,
Ray
 

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I'll second James' suggestion of Flitz down the bore. It can do wonders when nothing else seems to work. I would also agree with Contender that the brush itself may be the culprit. I've experienced this situation many, many times myself. It can be frustrating.
 

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You know Ray...I really don't know whats in Flitz that makes it work? The first time I saw it was back in the 70's at the J.W.Murchason show in Wilmington, North Carolina. Their booth was just down from our WW set up. They were using it for about everything. I wandered down and talked to the Flitz crowd. They said there was no abrasive in it, but that was about all they would comment on it. Well...I thought it was just another gimmick! Years later I bought a tube on a lark.
We started using it in barrels we were breaking in. We found that using it on stainless muzzle loading barrels the BP residue seemed to sweep out? So it must do something to the pores of the metal. Since then I use a combination of jewelers rouge #1 and Flitz on all my new barrels during break in. Strange as it sounds, using it seems to reduce and remove copper fouling also? It almost acts like the old mercury ointment we used for lead fouling years ago. It's a wonder we don't glow in the dark because of some of the stuff we used.
Best Regards, James   Oh, by the way...we use a patch on a worn brush covered with Flitz. That seems to get it down around those tight spots where the land meets the groove..jcg

(Edited by James Gates at 6:52 pm on May 24, 2001)
 

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Interesting stuff.  I don't think I've ever actually removed a completely clean patch from any gun I've cleaned.  Usually end up just giving up on that.  When the light blinds me looking at that shiny barrel interior, I quit cleaning.  I always clean after every shoot.  

Recently I've started using "boresnakes" on all my guns.  It has simplified cleaning and makes it a much less onerous task.  I can't say too much good about it.  Not a care about using this type rod or that,....there is not rod any more.  Just drop the cord through the bore, give it a snort of GPS, and pull it through.  A few strokes like this and the bore looks great.  Wash the boresnake in the washing machine when it starts to get gross.  

FWIW, John
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Mr. Gates,

"Since then I use a combination of jewelers rouge #1 and Flitz on all my new barrels during break in"

I sure would appreciate some more information on the potential use of Flitz during break-in. Do you use a dab on a cleaning patch during the "shoot one, clean, shoot two, clean, etc."? I've thought about this subject before but never having seen a reference to it's use in that manner, have not tried it.

Appreciate the help,
 

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OK, really dumb question here,
     What is Flitz and where would one buy it? I have heard of it before but don't recall ever seeing it in a store.                 Thanks,   ID
 

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ID,

Flitz is a baby blue-colored metal polish and preservative, usually found in rather small tubes. The largest I've ever seen was the size of a toothpaste sample like you'd find in a hotel room. Most gun shops in my area stock it and I've also seen it at Lowe's or Home Depot.
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Mr. Gates,

Again, appreciate the email response. I have a Contender (14" .44mag) with about 50 rounds through it that I followed your instructions on today. I don't think it was my imagination when I noticed that the latter run-throughs seemed much easier than the original push required. I also used your process on a Ruger (5 1/2" .44mag) that I have had Taylor Throated and shot several thousand rounds through.  From the beginning, the pressure required was much less than the newer Contender barrel and the residue on the cloth was noticeably less.

Thanks for the help.
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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ID,

If you can't find Flitz locally, I got mine from Sinclair  International on the web -- <a href="http://www.sinclairintl.com/

Regards,

" target="_blank">http://www.sinclairintl.com/

Regards,

</a>
 

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Ray..Glad it's working for you...I find it quite interesting the changes you are getting after using the stuff..I think everyone would be interested to know if the improvement continues with more applications to the bore. Thanks for letting me know....Best Regards, James
 

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Thanks fellas, I found Flitz at the store today, maybe will get a chance to try it out next week (heavy work load this week!).          So Long,   ID
 

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Everyone remember that Flitz or Flitz/jewelers rouge is a bore condtioner and does not replace fire lappimg to remove tight spots. However, as stated before, after fire lapping or a new barrel it has shown to work very well on smoothing out a barrel.
Best Regards, James
 
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