[hailstone]

Later this year will be moving my houses out of a flood plain where until recently it only flooded every dozen years. Since I will be joining several residences together to form a larger house I'll have room for building a gun vault in the new basement.

What I need information on is various methods of construction (planning on poured concrete walls & ceiling). Details concerning ventilation, electrical wiring, humidity control, possible security installation and fire protection.

I live in a rural area where law enforcement is thirty minutes away on a good day and fire protection is volunter fire departments whose response time varys widely depending on time of day and season (farming community).

Seeking input from individuals who have done this personally or know of someone who has constructed one in there residence. Also seeking any information sources that may be available, plans etc.

Basements dimensions are 28' x 56' with additional 14' x 16' and 18' x 36' wings. Need fire lane type passage through entire basement area so enclosing one portion completely across the basement width is not possible.

One possible size is 7' x 16' which would utilize four walls of the foundation with only the ceiling needing to be poured. Would that be too confining and basically limit one too storage only? If one wanted to set up displays for a collection of firearms what room size would be appropriate? Another possible size is 12' x 28'.

 

[Shawn Crea]

I had one built into my basement when I had a new house built in 2003, although not as large as what you're contemplating. Mine is 8'W x 12'L with a Browning vault door. Walls & ceiling are 8" thk concrete, with #5 rebar at 12" on-center in the ceiling. The vault door can be cast into the wall, or adhesive-anchored in after the walls are poured. This houses my guns and reloading equipment.

Electrical is one circuit for three outlets along one 12' wall, a wall-mounted electrical heater, and lights. No ventilation. This space is labeled a 'wine cellar' on the plans. I'm not a livable space design engineer, but believe there is some threshold of square footage that triggers ventilation requirements, and possibly fire protection requirements. Also, depending on your local codes, you likely have to have a licensed professional engineer stamp your plans.

For some of the spans you're contemplating, very likely you would have to have some intermediate columns, rather than a clear span.

I'm VERY glad I did this, BTW!

 

[Big Bore]

When we had our new house built I did a vault/safe room in the basement. The house plans called for two bedrooms separated by a bathroom downstairs along one side of the house so I did away with them and made it all one big vault. I did 10 inch thick reinforced concrete the same as the foundation and extended it all the way around instead of the stud and drywall walls the plans called for doing the one wall of the two bedrooms and center bathroom. Ventilation was done with two AC/Heat vents and one center of the room air return. It also has a Santa Fe dehumidifier draining directly into a built in drain and it can handle up to 100 pints of moisture per day and will cover a 2500 square foot area. It is expensive at $1400.00 but worth every penny when you consider the value of the items it protects.
The vault door is an in-swing Fort Knox but regardless of which door you go with, get in-swing. If you use your vault room as a safe room also, such as a tornado or hurricane shelter, if the house comes down around the door you will not be able to open the door if it is an out-swing. A chain saw kept in the vault room is also a good idea if it will serve dual purpose. Also TV and computer outlets let you keep track of storms as they pass you by (hopefully).
Don't forget security. I have a rather elaborate home security system and did several measures for the vault room also. Don't forget cellular back-up for your security system or a cut phone line can severely cripple your system. A trouble alarm is not responded to nearly as quick as an actual alarm.
Also don't forget to put your lights in the room on a motion switch. It is a real pain in the butt to open the door into a pitch black room and feel around for the light switch. If the light switch is just to the side of the door, as the door swings in it will trip the motion detector and turn on the lights and since it is timed, it will turn them off again after you leave. That was the best $20 I spent as an extra.
I have one lighting circuit with illumination done by five 4 tube HO florescent lay in fixtures in the drop ceiling and three power circuits. That is 24 receptacles total and keeps the humidifier on a separate circuit with one circuit dedicated to the reloading area and one for what ever use behind the gun racks. The dropped ceiling covers the duct work and rough ceiling as well as increasing illumination from the lights since it gets bounced around instead of being absorbed by the rough ceiling.
Don't forget the power circuits must be ground fault if the basement is below ground, which most are or they would not be basements!

 

[hailstone]

Those are some very good ideas Big Bore. Hadn't even thought of several -- i.e. in swinging door and using as tornado shelter. Plans are to use in floor heating throughout the basement. I live in area which historically has had less than twenty inches of rainfall so humidity is a small issue.

I had figured for fire protection openings would want to be limited to minimize smoke and heat damage to vault contents. Those are based upon bank vault observations in my current employment position.

Does any of the vault door manufacturers have design specifications? Living in a rural area does have some advantages in that we have few building codes or ordnances. Just set-back from the right of way line is the biggie and that's not a problem.

Biggest headache was FEMA's screw up registering all the data maps they use to generate the flood plain map. As a result I have about 200 yard wide swath of land along the river bed that's forty feet above water level but FEMA swears its not. Had to hire a engineering firm to survey then apply for a "certificate of elevation exemption" on portion I wanted to move the sturctures too. That's just one of numberous bad situations I've had with FEMA!

 

[jbee]

If I was going to go through all that bother, I think I would build in a bathroom and have the plumbing go through the floor and under the wall, even if I had to use a power flush type. If you were stuck in there for a long period of time, going to the bathroom becomes a need vs. a want.

I would bury a 6" fresh air vent line under the floor that exited far from the property. With a little work, you can draw in fresh air and exhaust through the sewer.

I would consider a trap door in the vault that led to outside, I always like a second exit that is simple. You can secure it shut from within the vault with 1/4"x3 channel through loops and shove 600-800 pounds of weight directly on the cement hatch. Back fill the exit with sand (easy to shovel) and top with dirt on the outside and never tell anyone it is there.

My thing is I have to build for 8 people. 8 people eat and poop a lot in one week never mind a month.

 

[mgrace]

FEMA

I consider that a NASTY FOUR LETTER WORD.

Michael Grace

 

[unclepaddy]

I entertained this idea a few years back, but nixed it because I wasn't going to stay in the house I was living in then. At the time, there were quite a number of quality safe doors on the market both new and used. The one thing that absolutely terrifies me about safes is that I would ever get locked inside one. I have made up my mind that I'll take a bullet before I get locked in. I know a friend-of-a-friend that was the victim of a home-invasion that happened so fast he couldn't get to his gun to defend himself. He was locked in his own gun safe by the robbers. Fortunately, his wife had not only the presence of mind to hide, but to cover her side of the bed they'd been asleep in so it looked like he was alone. After they left, she was able to get him out. Anyhow, think about that p[ossibility, or even the possibility of accidently locking yourself in.

 

[hailstone]

Actually most safe doors are quite simple to unlock from inside if you have the knowledge. Few simple tools will make quick work of it and since this would be a "gun room" I would have it set up for doing gunsmithing work, reloading, storage and display. Because of the gunsmithing work the necessary tools would be inside the room. Safe doors and locks are designed to deter, delay and prolong the break-in increasing the chances of discovery before penetration to the valuables. If your inside where the valuables are its much easier.

 

[Crusty Ol'Coot]

Be'in the Ol'Coot that I am, I would attempt to avoid all possible "official notification".

On an addition or remodel, I would build to meet or exceed any and all building codes, just because that is how I build, but have a thing about too many people knowing about what they don't need to know anything about.

On a new home, this may be a problem, but in the storm zones it would seem simple to call it a storm shelter.

I have never under stood why this is not a requirement in those areas anyway.

Anyway, get your ducks in a row as per door sizes etc. for the cement pour and once the final inspections are finished, order and install the safe door.

Have given little thought to a "safe" the size spoken of above, but have considered building a deterent cabnet.

Brother in law tells me stainless steel isn't cut with a typical cutting torch, so that seems like a reasonable way to go.

Enjoy fabricating, so this seems like it could be a fun home project.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

[jodum]

As I have mentioned in another thread, my son in law built a gun safe that looks like a large coffee table. You would never know your coffee cup was sitting on a small arsenal.

 

[2Bits]

Ummmmmmmm lots of opinions as to what is a real safe gun vault! Well, I built my 10' x 12' vault years ago, it has walls of double face 5/8 inch 60pis re-bar off-set on 6 inch centers, meaning that you will be looking through a 3 inch whole between re-bar steel. However in between that re-bar is is two layers of off set 1/4 inch hi-way mesh, which cuts that whole down to around 1. 6 inches.

The ceiling has #9 re-bar on 8 inch centers welded, with 3/4 inch steel mat tied up on 4 inch centers, spaced 4inches above bottom mat. Once again there is highway mesh laid 4 inches above that and the ceiling is 12 inches thick. The floor was put in according to the same specs. The door is a 4.5 inch thick old safe door that weighs a bunch. This also serves as a Tornado shelter too!

 

[manderson35]

do you guys have a back up power supply or is it just from the main?

 

[jbee]

You know I was thinking today, if your gun safe has an electronic lock system with no easily accessible key back up and we had an EMI pulse, that would stink!

I was just wondering if my safe with 1/4" steel walls was heavy enough for storing emp sensitive stuff such as a car computer for back up.

 

[thegrandenigma]

It might work if it's grounded. I read an article once (I forget when, but I think it was Popular Mechanics) that you or equipment would be shielded if inside a box made of gold screen that was grounded (I saw it on Mythbusters too!) I don't know if steel plate would do the same thing.

 

[hailstone]

Haven't gotten that far yet but yes I will have alternative sources of power. I bought my first generator in 1976 when a sleet storm took out power for seven days. Since then I've had several six day periods without electriciy and couple lesser outages. Originally had to buy the backup generator because I had livestock that needed feeding and watering. Since then its been a valuable asset whenever needed.

The poster who mentioned using the vault as tornado shelter got me to thinking about alternative uses besides a gun vault. I do live in an area where tornados are a possibility. Long before I was born one touched down about two miles from my residence and destroyed the entire farmstead except the house! Talk about divine intervention. Having toliet facilities would be welcome but have running water and drains makes one nervious. When I was in the service the naval station where I was stationed had a arms room with an individual who lived in part of the concrete structure. His quarters was outside the arms room -- it had two doors one swinging each direction with the wall being about 12 inches thick. Needless to say there were no drains or water in that room. Does Uncle Sam know something we don't?

I'm a gadget man myself but don't believe the electronic locks are that good -- just convient -- in this type of setup. A mechanical lock would be better able to withstand temperatures of a fire. Couple years ago one of my employers buildings burned down and left the old vault intact (old bank building). About a week later another employee went to the burned down building, set up a ladder, dialed the combination and opened the door. That wouldn't happen with the electronic locks used today.

Decided to use in floor heating to eliminate ducts but will have to address A/C requirements. Thinking about using split A/C units such as Sanyo and several other Asian manufacturers market.

By the way what the last poster is talking about I believe is called a "Faraday Cage" named after early electrical pioneer.

 

[kudu40]

I know of a few people that purchased a vault door (with jamb) from Mosler safe company. They mounted it in a poured reinforced concrete wall. They had a hard wire phone installed along with drainage and ventilation.
I would have LED lighting available in case I had to stay in it for an extended time. Cell phones probably wouldn't work because the construction would probably block any signal (Faraday again).

Kudu40

 

[hailstone]

Now that is a suprising thing cell phone reception. Where my residence is located I'm on the very edge of reception. If I stand in front of my kitchen window with the phone between my head and the window I have reception. Just turning so my head is between the phone and tower losses the reception. Yet at my place of employment I work out of a reinforced poured concrete basement with girders and floor trusses of steel with steel decking and poured concrete on top of that -- perfect reception -- go figure.

There has been numberous banks tore down in my area and know where several of the vault doors are from them. Don't know if I'll go that way or buy new. I think the suggestion of another poster that the door swing into the vault has real merit especially if used as an alternative tornado shelter.

 

[Tebsinar]

A serious consideration should also be to do a good water seal of the foundation. These are often done on the outside.
You may also realize that a gun safe inside your vault room is a good investment.
Lots of folks do not realize that a professional can open many vault doors in a matter of a half hour or less. That is why safes these days have a rating that indicates level of security based on estimated time to compromise the unit. I think they call the ratings TR levels. A unit with a second "barrier" or lock provides additional security.

 

[jbee]

> another poster that the door swing into the vault has real merit

Yes, even if the door is blocked you can at least get air or pull stuff into the room to get out.

 

[minst7877]

Question If the vault door swings into the room what side of the door is the lock access panels on. Have you not just put them on the outside of the vault.

DC