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Discussion Starter #1
In the thread; Browning 1886 Carbine or Marlin 1885 in Lever Guns and their Cartridges Bill Lester said:
Beyond the question of increased cost, I personally feel that there is something fundamentally wrong with buying a gun manufactured in a country like Japan that is actively and vocally fighting in the UN for a worldwide ban on privately owned firearms.
I agree. I have for many years refused to purchased guns made in Communist China (Norinco), Japan (Browning-Winchester ect, And the European countries. Years ago I owned an Italian Clone, but I didn't know how Italy is on gun possession. I still don't.
Currently I own two Enfields. Both milsurp and not originally made for the United States commercial market.
But I REFUSE to support the economy of a country that is our enemy by purchasing a product they deny their own citizens.

In many retail outlets now all I have seen is products made in Communist China, or other countries hostile to the United States. I try as much as I can to refuse to buy clothes and shoes, but it is getting all but impossible to find American made products anymore.
However there is no consideration at all to firearms. To me it is hypocritical to buy a firearm from a country that is our enemy.
 

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I'm a little confused by some of the terminology or perhaps it's context in this topic. Enemy??? Are you confusing a competitor in the economic market with an agressor? I wasn't aware you were at war with China and thought the conflict with Japan was resolved nearly 60 years ago. Or are you referring to an enemy(s) of the shooting sports? Doesn't your own country deny you the right to own certain classes of weapons? I can't imagine Wash. D.C. being too enthused about you owning your own stingers, nukes or whatever.
Product lines do get a bit confusing these days though. We have two of the big American names in guns that have been bought up by a French conglomerate who have a lot of their products manufactured throughout the world. Sometimes they come as components from several countries and are then assembled somewhere else. Frankly, keeping them all sorted out on whether or not they come from a place that is completely acceptable politically seems a little like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Where do you draw the line in this argument without reducing your options to the point that you are just fair game for your domestic manufacturers?
Perhaps my view is diferent from necessity as we have no domestic manufacturer of sporting arms here other than a couple who are really full custom makers(Martin Hagn e.g.). Every firearm I own is an import and most of them are from the U.S.. If I had to agree with every aspect of American politics or laws to determine if I could buy an American made rifle I probably wouldn't be able to. And, neither would most of you.
 

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I'm not concerned about anyone boycotting any 'anti' countries industries -- except sporting arms.

Money talks, and if Moruko and Beretta are making dough, their governments will be forced by those industrialists to keep everyone happy with production and legal support.

Boycotting foreign arms, for this reason, anyway (there are other good reasons -- but anti-gun gov't support isn't one of them) hurts the segment of their economy that supports us. It's like boycotting Bill Ruger to hurt Sen Schumer and Clinton.
 

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I must strongly disagree. How much of the purchase price of a Brownchester goes back to Tokyo in the form of taxes? Knowing something of the Japanese economy, I'd say it's a larger amount than most American shooters may realize. So why should we, a nation of gun owners, support a foreign government that is doing its best to end private ownership of firearms worldwide? How is it any different than when the NRA decides not to have its annual convention somewhere because of a city government's hostile attitudes towards 2nd Amendment rights?

If the Japanese people are satisfied with their government's position on private firearms, that's their political and social choice. But it is equally my own choice to refrain from purchasing guns made in a land that is unequivocally an enemy of my rights. I encourage all my friends here at the Beartooth forum to do likewise. We may not be able to force Tokyo into changing it's view of guns, but at least we won't aid it in destoying our Bill of Rights.
 

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This is a very relavent subject. I want to liberate these people from an oppresive government and certainly do not want to deminish my own rights anymore. Lately I am on the fence. I can not think of one situation where we know that economic boycott of a country has worked. I can see many instances where the spread of capitalism and freedom has.

The same generation we see here opposing and protesting war are the same generation we saw in Red Square. The same generation we saw tear down the Berlin wall. Let's watch Venezuala and see if freedom there will benefit us as a nation.

It is my opinion( and yes I have one like everybody else) for now is, if we had not boycotted Cuba all these years Kastro would be history and Cuba would be a state.
 

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Chief,

In the context of a political boycott I tend to agree with you, although in the case of Cuba it made no difference at all. Castro would still retain power. He's actively traded with the rest of the world from day one and it's still a Communist cesspool. Always will be until he and his lackeys are dead. But this isn't a political boycott to my way of thinking. A handful of American "gun nuts" aren't going to force a change in Tokyo's thinking one way or the other. For me it's simply a matter of having a clear conscious, knowing that I'm not helping an avowed enemy of our Constitution by buying goods that it wants confiscated after the sale. To me the Japanese are the ultimate hypocrites here.
 

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IMO anybody who believes that our conflict with Japland was resolved nearly 60 years ago has never been to Tokyo. Those people hate us but fear us also, and fear is a great deterrent.

As far as buying foreign, if we don't have a gun industry here, we will lose an awful lot of leverage on our own government. If we buy foreign, our domestic industry will go down the toilet.

The only foreign arms I buy are a few milsurps now and then.

DC
 

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J Miller
I can aggree with you on the most of what you said. But tell me who in America makes a Lever gun-especially in 45 LC? As far as I know -no one does! Unfortunately if you buy an "American Car" Most of it was made else where!! :(
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Gunnut45/454,

Although I don't like the new versions of the Mdl 94 Win, they still make it in .45 Colt. The 92's and 86's are Japaneese made, but the 94's are made here.

Also Marlin makes the 1894CB in .45 Colt.

You are right about cars and trucks.
My Ford has more foreign made parts than I can coun't. I think my wifes Nissan PU is more American than my Ford.
 

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I'm kinda torn on this issue. I do not want to support any company or country that is out to squelch firearm ownership rights, but the question begs to be asked is: Should we not support Winchester or Browning at all since the parent company also is the owner of Miroku who has been listed as detestable? It would appear that that if Miroku is guilty by being a foreign held company with facilities in Japan (who is not to be supported) then Winchester and Browning would be just as guilty, by association with the parent company who allows this type behavior to exist in the first place. If not and we support only American manufacturers and get the S&W type agreements, the Winchester cross-bolt safeties and Remington integral locking devices shoved down our throat, how else can we prove to them that we don't want this other than not buying at all? Not buying at all is essentially boycotting the manufacturers of those that supply us with tools of our sport and second amendment rights. Are Marlin, Savage and Ruger the only major manufacturers that we support? Many are still upset with Ruger over Bill's ill thoughtout acceptance of the 10 round clip issue and having to make aftermarket adjustments to Ruger firearms because of unacceptable out-of-the-box quality.

I really appreciate the Miroku rifles that are being offered. We are getting models and quality that we haven't seen from Winchester or Browning in a long, long time. If Miroku wasn't making these, would they be made? Who can afford the thousands of dollars for an original 1886 or 1895 Winchester? I would not buy from a country such as China, N. Korea, Iran, Iraq, etc... but Japan, well, I don't know.

One other issue is that our Bill of Rights are those of the people of the United States. It is not for debate with foreign countries, allies or not. No other country can tell us we do not have the freedom of religion or speech, that we can "keep and bear arms", that we do not have certain unalienable rights as guaranteed by our nation's constitution. That is for the people of the United States to perserve and defend, regardless of foreign input or export. Japan does not have the infrastructure, resources or economy to boycott the U.S. Their economy and lives are built on selling and receiving goods and services to/from the U.S.

Again, I don't want to support oppressing governments, or even U.S. manufacturers that are turning out substandard quality or ill thoughtout locking devices or silly government agreements, but where is the line drawn? Do we only buy used guns at exorbitant prices or custom made rifles and handguns? Which manufacturers don't have fault?:confused:
 

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Hi, Gents:
Canada's output of sporting arms probably doesn't equal Montana's, although some of Savage's .22s are made by Lakefield, so I don't have a domestic industry to support, anymore. Alyeska bought up a point that reminds me of a saying we had back when import duties were much higher than they are now. "Don't feed the beavers if they haven't earned their supper." Griping about quality control won't influence the bean counters who run the show in most outfits today, buying from the competition will. With modern business's emphasis on economy of scale, the competition will be overseas, since even the American market isn't big enough to support anymore than a dozen high volume - low cost manufacturers. While we all wish our governments would respect our privacy, the fact that they publish the number of guns manufactured or imported annually gives the bean counters no place to hide from alert shareholders if their market share is slipping.

I admire Marlin and Savage for making proven centre-fire rifles for the price of a Remington 710. Where's Mossberg in the picture? Seems they sell a lot of shotguns.

Japan and Canada both have governments run by the same political party for too long, and both parties are quietly anti-American, Francine Ducros excepted. While Canada's problems are mostly self-inflicted, I've heard that the Japanese constitution is the work of one General Douglas MacArthur.

Bye
Jack
 

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Jack,

Virtually all of post-war Japan's representitive form of government was the work of MacArthur. You're most certainly correct.
 

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Where do we draw the line? What do you drive? What electronics do you use? Have you looked carefully where all your clothes and shoes are made?

I try to buy American made products as much as I can, but if you can show me a completely 100%, including ALL parts, made in America vehicle anymore I'd love to see it.

I lived for eight years with one of the most morally bankrupt human beings on earth as our president. Who every minute of every day tried to take away my 2nd Amendment/and all other rights.

I fear Clinton and his ilk way more than Miroku making Winchesters in Japan.
 

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The point has been made several times about cars, electronics, etc. They're largely inconsequential to the subject at hand. Tokyo isn't actively trying to ban automobiles or confiscate VCRs. The Japanese government most certainly is trying its best to prevent free people around the globe from owning firearms. There's a tremendous difference. And that's why I personally believe that buying Miroku products is helping to destroy an American purchaser's rights in the long run.
 

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I don't know Bill. I mean, the line of reasoning is that Japan's government is pressuring world leaders to adopt some type of anti-gun ownership stance, then any trade support to that country is furthering that end. So whether be VCRs, cars, guns, or widgets, the power of capital is the same. Whether the government is gleaning their taxes from guns or cars makes no difference, it is still cash.

I'm not so sure our freedoms of gun ownership is appreciated by hardly any governments worldwide. Even Canada, Australia and England (3 of our closest supporters) have restricted their citizenry to nearly absolute no handgun ownership. Should we boycott those countries, also? Any country that signed the Kyoto agreement?

The problem I see is two-fold. One is international and the other domestic. One we aren't getting support from any other country for our private citizens' constitutional rights. Whether that be Japan, England, Germany, or whomever doesn't matter. To me, this is almost a non-issue (as long as they are allies and not some inhumane or oppressing government). Because, these are rights that U.S. citizens enjoy, this is internal. It is about what we the people will tolerate from our congressmen, senators, President, and state governments. Japan, England, Russia really have no say in the matter. They may pressure our leaders to try to oppress us, but that is still an internal issue. What we allow and who we elect.

The other issue is quality. Total support of the Big 5 (Winchester, Remington, Ruger, Savage, Marlin) step and stride is not going to improve quality. Nor is it going give us the products or features we want. All of the manufacturers listed above have ignored the wishes and concerns the American shooters have at one time or another. Without competition, why would they listen?

I mean no offense, and I hope none is taken. I'm just trying to understand and decide what is the right thing to do.
 

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Well, I'm certainly not going to belittle someone else for their choices in the product they buy. Most of the flak over gun control we hear is generated within our own borders, however, there is a very active movement to ban private ownership elsewhere. I've included a link to a report on the 1998 efforts in the U.N. Although at the moment all is quiet in the UN, but in 2004 the issue, from what is being said, may very well resurface. Keep in mind, the firearms ban in Australia was endorsed and an upcoming trade deal was part of the deal....supported by Japan. The GOA reported on their involvement in the ban. Curiously, the 2 hour NRA program on the ban failed to mention anything about it. Larry Pratt was on the Michal Regan show discussing all the details on the UN and Australia issues.
The other thing that puzzled me was the response on the Smith&Wesson cave-in on gun locks. The firearm owners brought them to their knees, refusing to purchase their products. Kmart felt the wrath over Roise's ill advised or un-advised remarks, but never was a word uttered over the link I've included.
Well, anyway, that my 2 cents on the issue.

Bill



http://www.mcsm.org/global.html
 

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Alyeska,

I do understand the point you're making and it is valid. To be completely consistent, one would have to boycott anything Japan exports. But that's a mixed messege. Would Tokyo know that I'm doing that because of its anti-gun stand? Doubtful. More likely any decrease in overall exports would be chaulked-up to protectionist sentiment. But if we as a nation refrain from buying Japanese guns, the picture is much more clear for our friends across the Pacific. It probably wouldn't mean a hill of beans anyhow, but as I said earlier at least I can have a clear conscious knowing I did right by our Bill of Rights.
 

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I agree with you there, Bill. However, if the gun industries in Tokyo aren't making money and are run out of business, with the government they have being so anti-gun, I doubt they would be missed considering the small donation to Japan's GNP they constitute.

As a statement to Japan, it might work and it might not. Even if it did, I don't think they would care. As a statement about quality and what it is American shooters want to the U.S. manufacturers, it would mean we are ready to accept only the models they are producing at the quality they are being produced. It would mean we are ready to accept whatever whim is of those that have used our trust against in the past.

If I buy from Miroku, I'm telling Winchester that I'm sick of the hideous safety they put through the side of the 94, I won't accept the degrading quality I've been experiencing over the last couple of decades and I want the 1895 and 1886 models offer. I see it more about letting Winchester, Remington, Ruger, Marlin, etc. know what it is I want and what I don't want rather than seeing it as support to Japan's anti-gun stance against the U.S. I see my Bill of Rights as something stand alone to this country and what my rights and responsibilities are in our political process. I don't think Japan can influence those rights as long as we stay vocal here in this country.
 

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It's a tough decision. In the 70s/80s the Japanese car companies nearly ran the American car companies clear out of business. I've driven & worked on mid-70s vehicles, both American and Japanese, and it's a wonder Detroit survived at all. The best vehicle I ever had as far as reliability goes was a Nissan, built in Tennessee (how's that for splitting the difference?).

Now it's a different story, the American car companies are putting out a vastly improved product. So.... how do we encourage the American gun companies to make a better product, without driving them completely out of business first? I really don't have the answer to that, but I think that part of it is that some Japanese/European/etc. guns have to be sold in this country to ensure that the domestic manufacturers have some competition.

At heart, I would rather buy American (in general not just guns) and have taken to looking at the tags before I buy anything these days. Bugs the heck out of me that so much of our consumer goods come from China, a country that is not really very friendly to the U.S. when you look at many foreign policy issues. If you don't believe that, think about the trouble that North Korea is causing and realize that the Chinese are about the only government left that supports them. If China shuts the border, North Korea literally will shrivel up and die and they know it.

One other aspect of the increased trade with China is the trouble it's causing for Mexico. With NAFTA, there was window for Mexico to use trade with the U.S. to build up their economy & middle class, much like Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea did. Now those nations don't have nearly the price advantage on their goods that they once did. But before it could really take effect, China and other Pacific Rim nations undercut the Mexicans and got the business.

While the loss of an American job to another country stings just as much to the person who lost it no matter where it went, believe me, there would be a huge catastrophe if the Mexican economy collapsed. The border is porous enough right now; imagine if a couple million desparate Mexicans flood into the country all at once. A stable, prosperous Mexico would be a heck of a good deal for the U.S. We are very fortunate to be friendly (for the most part) with Canada with it's long, mostly unguarded border.

Well, I don't think that we solved the issue, but it has been an interesting discussion.
 
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