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Discussion Starter #1
When I couldn't get straight info about charge weights of pyrodex, I used Goex 2F Black Powder in a sealed can to charge and weigh an old T C telescoping black powder measure. This is the widely distributed (twenty years ago) measure that has the little ball on the end of the slider, for a leather thong to attach. Here's the weighed black powder and ball weights.
measure Closed; 50.0 grs. of 2F Black Powder, from a sealed Goex can.
1 exposed groove; 60.2 grs. of 2F Black Powder
2 exposed grooves; 82.5 grs. of 2F
3 exposed grooves; 95.5 grs. of 2F
4 exposed grooves; 103.5 grs. of 2F
5 exposed grooves; 116.0 grs. of 2F
6 exposed grooves; 128.0 grs. of 2F
Since my lefty Cabela's Investarms Hawken has a chromed bore, I ordered undersize .520" balls from Hornady. Their .520" ball weighs 211.0 grs.. While the tight .530" ball weighs .220 grains. I squished the two balls in my press so they wouldn't roll around in the dish of my little RCBS powder scale. My fifty four caliber, 28" bbl. has a max. efficiency with 73.6 grs. of powder, per the Davenport formula. So I'm using the measure with three grooves exposed.
The davenport figures for the 58 cal. are 3.038 x bbl. length, and the 62 cal. figures are 3.472 x bbl length.
I hope this bit of measuring helps cut through the volume for volume, circular pyrodex info, considering that not everybody has the orig. black 2F powder to do the comparisons. When Pyrodex was introduced, way back when, just about everyone did have the old black powder on hand, IMHO.
 

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I appreciate the work and am always happy to see some actual weight for a given volume.
How, though, do you see someone making use of this data? Using Pyrodex is easy, ones takes a powder measure with calibrations engraved, sets the plunger to the desired mark and fills the measure with Pyrodex. Then into the gun. Same process as with real BP
Where does your data fit into that process?

considering that not everybody has the orig. black 2F powder to do the comparisons. When Pyrodex was introduced, way back when, just about everyone
I don't follow that.
Why is having any black FFg on hand for comparison even necessary? Set the measure. Fill. Dump.
I've been known to miss the obvious before, so I'm asking.
Pete
 

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Discussion Starter #3
T. C. telescoping measure

Thanks for looking.
I wish I could have posted a photo of this little measure. It's the T.C. adj. one with the round barrel and the round finial bulb that you lace a leather thong around the shank. It's been around forever, but now there are "improved" ones that have set screws ect.. But we still have the orig. ones on store shelves here.
 

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carpooler, I believe you may get more response to your post if it was in the Muzzleloader section than here in the Black Powder """Cartridge"" section.

RS
 

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Discussion Starter #5
No Doubt, Gunny,

No doubt that you're right. But I did the FFG comparisons just to show the reciprocal values. The old TC measure isn't for C&B revolvers as it starts at about 50grs. I noted a lot of friends buying inlines, that never saw a can of real FFG powder. So I thought I'd post what this measure actually does with it. Not so much for loading muzzle loaders, but in helping to substitute Pyrodex, in cartridges as well as inlines. That's what I was trying to come up with, when I titled the thread, "circular directions". With only volume substitutions being published, you can't just weigh up some Pyrodex for an obsolete black powder cartridge. But if you know what these little measures throw in FFG Black, then you can set a similar TC measure, and will be very close to the known weight. I've been told that all Pyrodex is the same chemical mix, but the P is ground much finer, and therefore packs better. The RS Select is about 70% of the weight of the same volume of black powder. It's coarse grind doesn't pack, but the large granules make up for it in spades.
 

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carpooler, I hear what you are saying, and don't misunderstand me here, I am not ragging on you, just saying that you may get a better response in another area.

Now with that said your comment about never seeing any FFG powder is a surprise to me. I shoot on average about 4 cases ( that would be 100 lbs, as Black comes 25 lbs to the case) a year, thats year in and year out some years I shoot (5) cases of powder. This year and it only being the begining of March, I had 14 lbs left in the last case I bought in 2010, that is already gone and tonight I started on the next case. I only shoot FFG powder in both my 45/70 and in my 45/90. I also own a 40/65 and a 40/82 Crossno, I don't shoot either of these 40's nearly as much I shoot FFFG powder in the 40/65 and the Crossno.

I gravitated to the FFG in the 45's after in load work-up trying both FG and Swiss 1½FG powder. The 1½ FG is a very old grind and today is only made and ground by Swiss powder I believe. I am in the minority in loading FFG as by far the most popular powder amoung Competitors in both BPCR Silhouette and Creedmoor as well as Long Range matches is probably the 1½FG Swiss in the 45's.

I buy all of my powder by the case or in 25 LB lots, back when I was shooting the Nationals at Raton I would usually stock up there in Raton, NM at the shoot at the Whittington Center. Today I just order it via the net and have it delivered to my door by UPS.

Black Powder is readly available in "All" Granulations and in multiple brands with different burn characteristics, and as far as I personally am concerned Goex is at the bottom of the ladder as to the quality of Black Powder available today. Any of the substitutes are so far from "Quality" powder it is almost funny.

Roland
 

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Discussion Starter #7
hazmat fees and magazines

Hello Gunny,
How about elucidating a bit on the fees and regs in accepting 25# of Class A Explosives at your front door in the middle of a town? Around here, the average Joe, buys replica powder in 1Lb. cans or canisters. Many have gone straight to the replicas, and don't have the old Black Powder. That's all I was trying to show. The little list was supposed to give a comparison to these replica users. I know Pyrodex P won't meter through my RCBS measure. It's way too fine. Out here, in Idaho, buying 25# lots, would be more for a club than an individual's usage.
 

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$ and regs

How about elucidating a bit on the fees and regs in accepting 25# of Class A Explosives at your front door in the middle of a town?
It is not a big deal. I live in NYC and routinely have powders - smokeless and Black - and ammunition delivered to my home via UPS. The Hazmat fees are the same for one, five, or twenty-five pounds.
The price per pound for the Swiss FFg referred to above from Powder Inc. (www.powderinc.com) is $20.16 if ordered in a 25 pound lot. That includes shipping and the hazardous materials handling fee.
UPS shows up with a box. You sign for it. Can't see the problem unless there is a violation of local regulations.
To that end....in NYC storing 25 lbs is a violation, so I order less than that.
Pete
 

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Carpooler, I think Pete explained it pretty well. There is a $25.00 dollar Hazmet fee for any order of powder no matter the quanity up to 25 lbs. Federal Law says you can have no more than 50lbs of powder, UPS delivers it to your door. Now there may certainly be local requirements as to the "Storage" of the powder but you would need to check on that in Idaho.

I do know one thing about Idaho though. For sevreal years I shot the Idaho State Championships for BPCRS ( Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette ) at Boise. There was always a big turnout at that shoot, 50 or 60 shooters at least. Most of them were from Idaho, all shooters are required to shoot straight Black Powder no duplex loads, the one and only substitute allowed is in fact Pyrodox and in my years of shooting BPCRS I can not remember any shooter competiting with Pyrodox ever. So of those 50 or 60 shooters at least 90% or so were from Idaho so somebody in Idaho is ordering there powder by the case and getting it delivered as well.

Now as to a club thing, well I guess some clubs may do that but it would depend intirely on how much you shoot now wouldn't it? I shoot on average three times a week for practice and I shoot a Silhouette match almost every weekend. In practice I shoot "On Average" about a hundred rounds per session, In a match the course of fire is 40 targets for record plus your sighter shots and I usually shoot 5 or 6 sighter shots at each different animal so thats another 20 or maybe 24 rounds downrange in a match for a total of 60 or 64. Depending on which rifle I am shooting that day or that match the 45/70 or the 45/90 I use about a lb of powder per loading session. At that rate it doesn't take long to go through a case of powder.......
RS
 

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Gunny: That's a lot of powder. And a lot of lead......where do you get your bullets?

Pete
 

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Pete, I shoot I Creedmoor design bullet that weighs 540 Grains for most of my Silhouette. I do shoot a 570 Grain Smerker bullet on the Rams. I do all of my own casting and cast mostly 30 to 1 lead to tin. Here lately I have been trying some harder alloy but not having much luck with them, but time will tell.

RS
 

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Discussion Starter #12
hang fires with Pyrodex Select

At least, using my little chart, I can record a volume by weight in FFG Black powder, for the Pyrodex Select, which is really coarse, from my old T.C. measure, into a book. But I've also had to go to a musket nipple to get a hot enough spark to fire off these 54 cal. Select loads reliably. With a T.C. tang peep sight, a musket cap, and the three scribed lines showing, on the measure, I can do pretty well with the smaller round ball, (.520) at 100yds, on paper targets. But trying it in my 44 Rem. New Army, even with the #11 mag. caps was a disaster. I suppose the local stores are taking the easy way out, selling the replica powders. But, maybe, it's also their commercial insurers who are choking off the old Black Powder. I remember an incident, in the news, where about seven people in a hardware store were killed when one customer was shaking a sealed can of Black powder, and it detonated, and then several more lbs. behind the counter followed suit. It's not too far up to Buffalo Arms in Ponderay, Id., to buy lead and powder, so I'm not that isolated. But I don't want too many lbs of black powder laying around here, either. I don't use that much black, partly because I've been too cheap to order the special guards for my chronograph's sky screens. I've just worked in black powder or Pyrodex Select loads, as needed.
Maybe this thread should have been in the muzzle loading section. But I'm trying to work towards this new 460 S&W case full of Black Powder, under a round ball, and wonder wad, for use in a cartridge conversion replica Colt Walker Revolver. I'm taking a cue here, from Hollywood Movie directer John Ford; " if this isn't the way the old west was, it's the way it should have been". This conversion to a Colt Walker, is probably the most hurt, anyone can get out of a .454 round ball, in a revolver, with a barrel made for round balls. I really doubt that a round ball, would do much out of a 460 Smith & Wesson magnum X frame revolver. You would probably need a completely new custom RB tuned barrel, screwed in, under the big X frame Smith's barrel shroud.
 
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