Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
Joined
·
11,219 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So, a guy at work has some 125 grain XTP's he wants to shoot but he only has Clays and 296. He'd like to make a plinker load with the 125's and Clays but . . . . . . none of his manuals (or Hodgdon's online data) list Clays with the 125 XTP's.

So I guess my question is "Why not?" I've used other "fast" powders for jacketed bullet "plinker loads" in the past using cast bullet data, so "why not' Clays?

No he doesn't have any of the other regular suspects and can't get any due to the idiocracy going on right now so please no "Why don't he use £¢€¥?" 😁

Thanks.

RJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,307 Posts
Every company cannot test every powder with every caliber! Im sure there are some computers that can come up with a suitable load.

Good luck and all the best.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
In the case of Clays, Hodgdon may have found pressure spikes that ruled out using the powder in .357 Mag. Computers can not calculate the pressure/time of any load, so it should only be used as a guide and used with great care.
Call Hodgdon and ask them. They'll tell you what they know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,611 Posts
There's a 135gr. cast bullet load for clays in the new Hodgdon manual, I'd use it and monitor what happens with a chronograph looking for excessive velocity deviations or spikes.
 

·
Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
Joined
·
11,219 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Thanks KB.

I was thinking it was like it being taboo to use Bluedot in the 41 mag or something 🙄

RJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,854 Posts
My Lee manual shows Clays data for a 125-grain lead bullet in the 357 mag. That runs 3.5 - 5.3 grains, at speeds a bit under 1k to 1250-ish. Maybe that'll help you guys get started. Watch the conversion from lead bullet to jacketed, though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,240 Posts
So, a guy at work has some 125 grain XTP's he wants to shoot but he only has Clays and 296. He'd like to make a plinker load with the 125's and Clays but . . . . . . none of his manuals (or Hodgdon's online data) list Clays with the 125 XTP's.
My thought, it's real close to Red Dot, which works with Jacketed bullets starting at the low end of the cast bullet range. ?? Which I have tried in the past. Keep a wooden dowel on hand, and make sure the number of shots fired = number of holes in the paper, and work up a bit. But that's a last resort sort of thing when no other options are available, and you need something that goes bang, (not boom, BTW). My red Dot loads came from a 2000 Aliant load guide, the ones that used to have a load for almost every bullet, and every powder. For the most part, I consider Red Dot, (and similar), a very good lead bullet powder, to be a waste of expensive jacketed bullets.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
696 Posts
Not many work up plinker loads with XTP bullets ... they aren't cheap .
The problem is if not enough velocity ... the jacket can stick in the bore ...So you want a light load that propells both lead core and jacket out the barrel .
Now you see why most people use cast , plated or coated bullets to make plinker loads ...they go out the barrel easier .
Lets look at 125 gr XTP 357 mag. univ. clays Data : Starting load - Nada ... no data in Hornady Reloading Manual #8

Lets look at 38 Special data 125 gr. XTP univ. clays Data: starting load 4.8 [email protected] 800 fps
max load - 5.5 grs. @ 950 fps.

You can load 4.8 grs. in 38 special brass ...Or load 4.9 grs. in 357 magnum brass for 800 fps in both .
You could also load 4.8 grs. in the 357 magnum case for about 750-775 fps ... BUT just make sure with this light load both the jacket and core leave the barrel .
Be very careful when light loading jacketed bullets . For soft recoil a lead or coated bullet gives the lightest recoil because they slip down the barrel easier and no danger of a jacket sticking in the bore .

I would get some cast / coated / plated bullets and save the 125 gr. XTP's for real magnum loadings.
Load Safe,
Gary
 

·
Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
Joined
·
11,219 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
1. If it weren't an XTP I'd be concerned about the jacket sticking in the bore.

2. It's the only bullet he could get his hands on.

3. He asked me for help before he started down a dark, slippery and winding path.

4. Now he has some of my leftover BlueDot AND trusted data AND primers AND some of my 358156 bullets to play with.

I think he's set.

RJ
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,739 Posts
If there's published .38 Special data, then I wouldn't worry about it either way. Start at max .38 special, and maybe go up a tenth or two. Easy peasy ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
Well there is Clays data for LRNSP from Load Data and Lee. Its 3.5 gr producing 984 fps in a 10" barrel and 910 in whatever Lee uses. High end is 5.3 gr. at 1260 fps. CUP is 11,900 for the light load and 33,000 cup for the heavy load. An XTP should produce more pressure, but there is plenty of room for more pressure at the low end. I can't recommend extrapolating pressure in changing from lead to metal jacket but, for myself, I would likely use the 3.5 gr to 4 gr. Clays for plinking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
Well there is Clays data for LRNSP from Load Data and Lee. Its 3.5 gr producing 984 fps in a 10" barrel and 910 in whatever Lee uses. High end is 5.3 gr. at 1260 fps. CUP is 11,900 for the light load and 33,000 cup for the heavy load. An XTP should produce more pressure, but there is plenty of room for more pressure at the low end. I can't recommend extrapolating pressure in changing from lead to metal jacket but, for myself, I would likely use the 3.5 gr to 4 gr. Clays for plinking.
Well, there is one thing I would think about and others are more qualified to comment on it. Since Clays is a very fast powder and a metal jacket bullet won't start as fast as lead, and there is a small amount of powder in the case, there could be a sharp spike. What that would do, if it occurred, I can't say.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,448 Posts
Computers can not calculate the pressure/time of any load, so it should only be used as a guide and used with great care.
Not sure what you mean. Pressure and time calculations with bullet movement are pretty much all the internal ballistics software (QuickLOAD and Gordon's Reloading Tool) do. The results are all estimates based on measured properties of powder samples, of course, but they often do surprisingly well.

Lets look at 125 gr XTP 357 mag. univ. clays Data
The OP is about Clays and not Universal Clays. The difference is about like N310 vs. N320.

Incidentally, the ADI Mulwala plant that made Universal (AD70) has been closed and decommissioned, and this powder will no longer be made. A substitute called AD650 was supposed to be available in its place now, but in July ADI reported they still didn't have its new facility running. They thought maybe they would this quarter, but no new press release has been posted since July. I don't know if Hodgdon will feel the substitute will be close enough in performance to keep the same name on this side of the pond or not. Maybe they'll call it Universal Improved?


CAUTION: This post discusses experimental load suggestions that are not published anywhere, nor have they been properly tested for safety and may exceed published pressure maximums for the cartridge(s) mentioned. Neither the writer, The Shooter's Forum, nor the staff of The Shooter's Forum assume any liability for damage or injury resulting from using this information. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DUPLICATE THE DESCRIBED LOADS without first working them up while watching for pressure signs. If you don't know how to do that, don't try.

RJ,

After adjusting to get a match in QuickLOAD to its lead bullet load, then substituting in the XTP, it looks like your friend's maximum would be 5.7 grains. As a cross-check, I took the ratio of the maximum loads for Universal and Clays and divided it into Universal load for XTP and got 5.9 grains. I call that good agreement and have just gone with the slightly smaller number here. It represents about 64.4% loading density. These quick powders do OK to lower densities than that, so I think he could start at, say 3.0 grains and work up.

With permission from Ed Dillon at NECO, these are the pressure and velocity versus time (upper image) and versus bullet travel down the barrel (lower image) plots. The final velocities are for a 10" single-shot barrel (length measured from breech), so the bullet travel given here starts with the bullet position in the cartridge in that barrel.

100235
 
  • Like
Reactions: Darkker

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
1. If it weren't an XTP I'd be concerned about the jacket sticking in the bore.

2. It's the only bullet he could get his hands on.

3. He asked me for help before he started down a dark, slippery and winding path.

4. Now he has some of my leftover BlueDot AND trusted data AND primers AND some of my 358156 bullets to play with.

I think he's set.

RJ
He can get a variety of cast bullets on line.
For plinking Rimrock has good deals on hard cast .357 bullets.
Can probably find someone to sell or trade the XTP's to if he does not want some full power loads from them.
Gary
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
What I mean is that computers can’t calculate all the spikes and such that have been found. Otherwise, there would be no need for testing. The labs have seen some strange pressure/time curves
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,854 Posts
[QUOTE="BearBear, post: 2287629, member: 38323"Well there is Clays data for LRNSP from Load Data and Lee. Its 3.5 gr producing 984 fps in a 10" barrel and 910 in whatever Lee uses.
[/QUOTE]

Lee doesn’t use anything. They simply re-print data from the powder companies (and some bullet companies), with their permission of course.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
One of the issues with using Clays for plinker loads in a .357 Mag. is the filled case volume. Small quantities of power in a cartridge case can detonate (i.e., explode) not burn. The results usually, if not always, are catastrophic. I stress the word "can". Minimum charges listed in loading manuals are sufficient to ensure the powder burns. Very light powder charges, meaning below to well below recommended minimums can be hazardous to your firearm, hand, fingers, eyes, and people near you. I would suspect the reason Clays is not listed for the 357 Mag is minimum charge to ensure the power burns is too close to or exceeds SAAMI specs for pressure in that cartridge.
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,739 Posts
I doubt that very much. 'Detonation' is mostly a phenomenon with slow burning rifle powders, in cases much larger than the .357. If the powder will work in a .38 Special.... there is no reason it will not work in a .357 Mag. The difference in case volume is not huge. It does need to be accounted for, but in my experience going from a 'special' to a 'magnum' case is maybe a couple tenths of a grain of powder. And of course the magnum gun can handle much higher pressures than the 'special.'

Just because there is no published data, does not mean that it cannot be safely used. It for sure means that no one has gotten around to testing that particular combination, yet. I'd be a lot more cautious if there was no 'special' data floating around.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
Detonation is something that can be done in a lab (Norma reported) with a very large capacity rifle case and a light load of very slow rifle powder. They reportedly managed to put about half the charge against the bullet and half against the flash hole. Could not repeat and no one else has reported. Personally, if very light charges of slow powders could generate over-pressure enough to blow up a gun, the whole field of demolition would change.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,854 Posts
there’s more involved than simply powder charge and quickness. Disbelieving or ignoring what labs (and Charlie Sisk, and others) can repeat at will with the specified conditions seems very foolish to me.

Super-quick powder is not known to share the detonation potential, to the best of my knowledge. I use light charges of Clays to very good effect in my 327 Federal. Obviously different, yet many similarities.
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top