Welp, I hope it's safe to stick my head up? (quickly looking left and right). I know I'm a simple minded country boy, all I ever cared about on a trigger was no take up, no creep, clean predictable break and no over travel. I've never blamed a trigger or any facet of the pull, to include mechanics on a miss. I love shooting Jack Rabbits with a .22, that'll teach you as much as a skeet field about lead.
CZ 452American
I bought a CZ 452 American .22 rifle about 10 years ago and have never fired it. It's a nice rifle but it lacks sights and the trigger is terrible. I bought a Timney trigger for it from Brownells and need to make time to install it. I like to have sights on my .22's. I normally do my own gunsmithing and have mounted sights on centerfire rifles no problem but this rifles's muzzle is .572" at the muzzle and am afraid that I'm not going to be able to get very many threads in the wall thickness of that light barrel. A Williams short ramp only allows one screw unless I make provision for another. Been looking for a band type ramp but all I can find are meant for larger diameter barrels. Anyone have any Ideas? Hate to do a sweat on job, it has such a nice blue job on it. I have a like new Weaver V22A that I can use on it in the mean time but sights would be nice.
61 - 80 of 93 Posts
Don’t get me started.Welp, I hope it's safe to stick my head up? (quickly looking left and right). I know I'm a simple minded country boy, all I ever cared about on a trigger was no take up, no creep, clean predictable break and no over travel. I've never blamed a trigger or any facet of the pull, to include mechanics on a miss. I love shooting Jack Rabbits with a .22, that'll teach you as much as a skeet field about lead.
I encounter so called precision shooters all the time who seem to think that a trigger pull down around 10 oz is necessary to shoot accurately.
Given that I shot National match for over a decade with a 4 pound trigger, and have shot varmints for decades with 2 to 2.5 pound triggers, I’m of the opinion if you need a sub 2 pound trigger to shoot better, you have not mastered trigger control and should not be calling yourself a “precision shooter”.
So what I'm hearing, basically, is the pressure trace proves that the bullet clears the bore in ~ 1.5 msec or so from the sear breaking. If that is the case, then I would conclude that all the 'locktime reducing gadgets' in existence are just that - gadgets - designed to separate the shooter from money.
wondering how you get that out of that ?So what I'm hearing, basically, is the pressure trace proves that the bullet clears the bore in ~ 1.5 msec or so from the sear breaking. If that is the case, then I would conclude that all the 'locktime reducing gadgets' in existence are just that - gadgets - designed to separate the shooter from money.
I don’t have a horse in the race just curious.
cheers.
From Darkker's pressure trace data. At least that's how I read his post.
Ok. Was going to write a smart alec question about how to scientifically "prove" the various takes on set vs. std triggers (Darkker vs JBelk). A totally scientific method required.
Then I went & read the blurbs about the TriggerTrace. Cool, would answer the 2x lock time question/argument. BUT, nowhere on either web site was the investment $ question answered. SO DOES ANYONE HAVE A PRICE QUOTE?
And, it won't answer the age old question of which is better, a question which by the way has been raging for several centuries now (all the way back to the flintlock era). Sorta like the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 (or various rifle cartridges). So, like said above, if it trips your trigger, go for it (pun intended)!
Then I went & read the blurbs about the TriggerTrace. Cool, would answer the 2x lock time question/argument. BUT, nowhere on either web site was the investment $ question answered. SO DOES ANYONE HAVE A PRICE QUOTE?
And, it won't answer the age old question of which is better, a question which by the way has been raging for several centuries now (all the way back to the flintlock era). Sorta like the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 (or various rifle cartridges). So, like said above, if it trips your trigger, go for it (pun intended)!
Further to wit -
I remembered that Quickload has a 'barrel time' prediction. Put in one of my hunting loads (165gr. Nosler Partition, .30-06, 24" barrel) and QL predicts 1.227 or so miliseconds.
Now, I don't have a pressure trace (or osciliscope) so don't have any way of 'measuring' from the sear break. There is some finite amount of time between the sear breaking, the striker going forward (the gun I use that load in is a Model 70), the firing pin tip striking the primer, and the primer lighting off the powder. I just don't have any way of measuring what that time is.
Thinking more about it, it would be interesting to see how that time interval compares to one of my Marlins. Hammer has to fall (and impact both the firing pin and the frame), then the firing pin has to go forward and hit the primer, then the primer has to light off the powder. My .35 Rem has lower muzzle velocity, but a shorter barrel. With the more complex mechanism (two piece inertial firing pin) it would be somewhat ironic if it had slow enough lock time that something speeding up the lock time could make any accuracy difference, although that's hardly the market those devices are pointed at.....
I remembered that Quickload has a 'barrel time' prediction. Put in one of my hunting loads (165gr. Nosler Partition, .30-06, 24" barrel) and QL predicts 1.227 or so miliseconds.
Now, I don't have a pressure trace (or osciliscope) so don't have any way of 'measuring' from the sear break. There is some finite amount of time between the sear breaking, the striker going forward (the gun I use that load in is a Model 70), the firing pin tip striking the primer, and the primer lighting off the powder. I just don't have any way of measuring what that time is.
Thinking more about it, it would be interesting to see how that time interval compares to one of my Marlins. Hammer has to fall (and impact both the firing pin and the frame), then the firing pin has to go forward and hit the primer, then the primer has to light off the powder. My .35 Rem has lower muzzle velocity, but a shorter barrel. With the more complex mechanism (two piece inertial firing pin) it would be somewhat ironic if it had slow enough lock time that something speeding up the lock time could make any accuracy difference, although that's hardly the market those devices are pointed at.....
Walker wasn't interested in the TIME of the lock as much as he was interested in reducing vibration in the gun before the bullet leaves. That's why the cocking stud is pinned to the firing pin. Just one of many places he found 'rattles'. He calculated lock time by weight, spring rate and travel as Otteson does.
As an exercise in GS school some guys calculated lock time on a Trap Door. compared with the fastest, it needs an eight day clock.
As an exercise in GS school some guys calculated lock time on a Trap Door. compared with the fastest, it needs an eight day clock.
Even with an "8 day clock" lock time, the 1873 Springfield could (and still does) produce amazing accuracy as proven by A. O. Neidner and many others.
All this means, as I stated before, is trigger time can make up for a lot more than a fast lock time can.
RJ
All this means, as I stated before, is trigger time can make up for a lot more than a fast lock time can.
RJ
I completely agree, RJ.
The difference in lock time can matter, I believe, to those chasing the edges; and the clear majority of the members here who admittedly do little shooting.
Aside from the obvious, a faster lock time may be beneficial.
Mike,
The barrel exit times are estimated based off Chris(?)-someone's OBT calculations. So especially considering the pressures calibrated for, I don't think you can say it "proves" anything.
The point was to give a visual representation for comparative purposes, to an amount of time most folks likely struggle to comprehend.
Assume anyone of the fine folks here who hold certain rifles in high regard, were using one which has the 8ms lock time.
If we were to accept the claimed doubling the lock time by adding a set-trigger. Now we have someone swinging a rifle with a hair trigger, with 0.016 lock time after sear release; generally aimed in the direction of a squirrel capable of doing a Matrix-esque ducking maneuver... Does that doubling of lock time matter?
I'll leave that up to anyone who wants to do a very basic calculation of barrel movement across a given time.
I do agree with 52, in that if one is confused about basic concepts such as length of pull, pull weight, and lock time. They likely would be under a grave misapprehension, about hair triggers.
I'm still waiting for some evidence or an articulate explanation as to how a machine, which does not move; is capable of inducing more movement to a firearm then a human, but only if a set trigger is used.
Cheers
The difference in lock time can matter, I believe, to those chasing the edges; and the clear majority of the members here who admittedly do little shooting.
Aside from the obvious, a faster lock time may be beneficial.
Mike,
The barrel exit times are estimated based off Chris(?)-someone's OBT calculations. So especially considering the pressures calibrated for, I don't think you can say it "proves" anything.
The point was to give a visual representation for comparative purposes, to an amount of time most folks likely struggle to comprehend.
Assume anyone of the fine folks here who hold certain rifles in high regard, were using one which has the 8ms lock time.
If we were to accept the claimed doubling the lock time by adding a set-trigger. Now we have someone swinging a rifle with a hair trigger, with 0.016 lock time after sear release; generally aimed in the direction of a squirrel capable of doing a Matrix-esque ducking maneuver... Does that doubling of lock time matter?
I'll leave that up to anyone who wants to do a very basic calculation of barrel movement across a given time.
I do agree with 52, in that if one is confused about basic concepts such as length of pull, pull weight, and lock time. They likely would be under a grave misapprehension, about hair triggers.
I'm still waiting for some evidence or an articulate explanation as to how a machine, which does not move; is capable of inducing more movement to a firearm then a human, but only if a set trigger is used.
Cheers
Still waiting on an email, but I have a suspicion it's going to be a fair amount more than a PT.DOES ANYONE HAVE A PRICE QUOTE?
Cheers
Perhaps lock time matters less for typical big-game rifles, than for things like competition .22 rimfires. Just a thought. Absent further documentation, we don't know what rifles Mike Walker was using his oscilloscope on, or why certain conclusions were reached.
I am enjoying using a CBC 32-20 at the moment, I presume it would have a slow lock time compared to most guns but it’s not rabbit head accurate maybe lock time has something to do with that.
Getting the $$&@&$ gun to go of is a problem sometimes, wobbly things they are.
Being able to gently touch a trigger shooting out of the Ute at night shore can increase confidence in accuracy.
Trying to pick a time when a critter is going to be were you want him to be is a part of shooting maybe lock time might make a difference that is not noticed in those decisions.
I think the biggest factor is how wobbly a person is.
Doesn’t mean you can’t shoot well but I think it means you have to go about it all a bit different.
Squeezing doesn’t work for me unless I have a concrete solid rest and at that point it doesn’t seem to matter much .
The trigger on my cz 22 is one of the reasons I can shoot well with it but I can shoot better with my 357 Rossi and that should not be the case.
I don’t believe it can be pin pointed to one thing I believe it is always going to be a combination of variables.
That said it is hard to imagine a infinitely adjustable trigger with no lock time not being the bees knees.
still don’t see how barrel time can have any thing to do with advantages or disadvantages with lock time .
Which is what is was curious about.
cheers.
Getting the $$&@&$ gun to go of is a problem sometimes, wobbly things they are.
Being able to gently touch a trigger shooting out of the Ute at night shore can increase confidence in accuracy.
Trying to pick a time when a critter is going to be were you want him to be is a part of shooting maybe lock time might make a difference that is not noticed in those decisions.
I think the biggest factor is how wobbly a person is.
Doesn’t mean you can’t shoot well but I think it means you have to go about it all a bit different.
Squeezing doesn’t work for me unless I have a concrete solid rest and at that point it doesn’t seem to matter much .
The trigger on my cz 22 is one of the reasons I can shoot well with it but I can shoot better with my 357 Rossi and that should not be the case.
I don’t believe it can be pin pointed to one thing I believe it is always going to be a combination of variables.
That said it is hard to imagine a infinitely adjustable trigger with no lock time not being the bees knees.
still don’t see how barrel time can have any thing to do with advantages or disadvantages with lock time .
Which is what is was curious about.
cheers.
My original assertion stands: Set triggers are worth it in the field but not used for competition because 1) they're unfair if part of the skill set is to hold a sight picture during a trigger squeeze of multiple pounds.
2) They're detrimental to BR accuracy due to the excess movement of parts during the time from sear release to bullet exit.
That's why minimum trigger pulls are dictated in hand held competitions and two ounce triggers are used in BR instead of 'set' triggers that add more parts to the chain.
Do you shoot better with a trigger with no creep, no over-travel and light pull? I do.
2) They're detrimental to BR accuracy due to the excess movement of parts during the time from sear release to bullet exit.
That's why minimum trigger pulls are dictated in hand held competitions and two ounce triggers are used in BR instead of 'set' triggers that add more parts to the chain.
Do you shoot better with a trigger with no creep, no over-travel and light pull? I do.
You've made it abundantly clear, that you are entirely confused on the difference between weight of pull, length of pull, and lock time...Set triggers are worth it in the field but not used for competition because 1) they're unfair if part of the skill set is to hold a sight picture during a trigger squeeze of multiple pounds.
2) They're detrimental to BR accuracy due to the excess movement of parts during the time from sear release to bullet exit.
That's why minimum trigger pulls are dictated in hand held competitions and two ounce triggers are used in BR instead of 'set' triggers that add more parts to the chain.
Do you shoot better with a trigger with no creep, no over-travel and light pull? I do.
It doesn't matter if there are 1, 2, or 25 moving parts in a trigger.
25 levers, pulleys, and ropes may well affect the weight of pull, the length of pull, and even the over-travel. However they have absolutely nothing to do with the weight of the firing pin and it's spring rate.
And you are still purposely ignoring the claim of a non-moving vice, being capable of inducing more movement into a rifle; than a 200# human with adrenaline coursing through his veins.
What Walker found was that vibrations during firing affects accuracy in machine rest test.
The worst case scenario is a double set trigger on a Mauser-type action:
The human disconnects the set trigger from the set trigger sear which is powered by an L shaped leaf spring.
The sear flips upwards and impacts the rifle's sear which then releases the cocking piece.
The movement of these parts impose vibrations during the firing process.
The release of the cocking piece firing pin affects the shroud and the bolt.
The bolt and shroud have been under pressure from beneath by the sear-cocking piece interface. This is released but replaced by the recoil of the expanding firing pin spring.
The impact of the firing pin with the primer is much less than the impact of the stop surface of the cocking piece against the shroud which 'rattles' in the bolt's threads.
There are many pages of traces that look like a seismometer on microfiche with notes on the high places.
Walker studied 'lock time' from the trigger pull, not the sear release. When the sear is not in the picture, math takes over and tells us time.
What controls vibrations in the rifle? Is it better for the cocking piece to catch the firing pin or is it better for accuracy for the bolt body to absorb that impact?
Walker developed but never, to my knowledge expressed, a boiled-down motto that perfectly says what Walker found through years of engineering and testing.
Straight, Solid and Square = Accuracy
Matt Canjar used Walker's studies to invent a single set trigger that simplifies and reduces the amount of 'flopping around' present in other triggers. Anybody can see the Canjar design in a CZ 527. Parts that move during firing move straight with the bore and square with the recoil surface and keeps the action bore solidly mounted to the stock.
Most experienced shooters immediately notice the difference between a BR rifle's (or M788) short thump of a dry fire and the clanging of a Mauser or Springfield. The difference in solid is apparent.
The worst case scenario is a double set trigger on a Mauser-type action:
The human disconnects the set trigger from the set trigger sear which is powered by an L shaped leaf spring.
The sear flips upwards and impacts the rifle's sear which then releases the cocking piece.
The movement of these parts impose vibrations during the firing process.
The release of the cocking piece firing pin affects the shroud and the bolt.
The bolt and shroud have been under pressure from beneath by the sear-cocking piece interface. This is released but replaced by the recoil of the expanding firing pin spring.
The impact of the firing pin with the primer is much less than the impact of the stop surface of the cocking piece against the shroud which 'rattles' in the bolt's threads.
There are many pages of traces that look like a seismometer on microfiche with notes on the high places.
Walker studied 'lock time' from the trigger pull, not the sear release. When the sear is not in the picture, math takes over and tells us time.
What controls vibrations in the rifle? Is it better for the cocking piece to catch the firing pin or is it better for accuracy for the bolt body to absorb that impact?
Walker developed but never, to my knowledge expressed, a boiled-down motto that perfectly says what Walker found through years of engineering and testing.
Straight, Solid and Square = Accuracy
Matt Canjar used Walker's studies to invent a single set trigger that simplifies and reduces the amount of 'flopping around' present in other triggers. Anybody can see the Canjar design in a CZ 527. Parts that move during firing move straight with the bore and square with the recoil surface and keeps the action bore solidly mounted to the stock.
Most experienced shooters immediately notice the difference between a BR rifle's (or M788) short thump of a dry fire and the clanging of a Mauser or Springfield. The difference in solid is apparent.
TriggerScanâ„¢ System - Dvorak Instruments
Overview TriggerScanTM is a computer controlled, motorized instrument, specifically designed to test trigger mechanisms of firearms. This patented technology set the standard in trigger quality evaluation. The system provides precise and repeatable graphical evidence of triggerquality...
www.dvorakinstruments.com
Still waiting on an email, but I have a suspicion it's going to be a fair amount more than a PT.
Cheers
Ok. Lots of quibbling here. Here is a proposal for someone who wants to "scientifically" address this debate.
1) get more than one rifle that can easily be equiped with both set & std triggers.
2) Get one type of ammo for each rifle so we're comparing aplles to apples.
3) get multiple shooters & rifles to a range all @ the same time. Some in favor of set, some in favor of std triggers.
4) run a statistically significant # of rounds by each shooter with both triggers, both off a bench & say standing. Even better if it included what I have read is required in Scandinavian permitting for a moose tag, shots on a moving target.
5) report group sizes by trigger type, by shooter trigger preference, by rifle, by recoil tolerance, etc.
It would also be intresting to repeat some of the claimed tests by Walker about induced vibrations. This will require using a multi channel simultaneously sampling oscilloscope connected to both strain gauges & very high frequency multi axis accelerometers to capture what is claimed. Unfortunately this test will require rather permanent modification of the reciever & barrel to capture the high frequency vibrations. Mechanical impedance filtering is a real thing.
Until this is done, this conflict will continue to be a "he said, she said" "my daddy can beat up your daddy" conversation, full of innuendos & competing untested claims. While it is fun to read (up to a point) it is getting a bit old.
Sorry if this offends, but if we are going to claim "scientific methods", someone needs to actually use the methods. YMMV
On edit & reading posts during my writing: JBelk, can you point us to any published results of Walkers experiments?
Too bad no one has one of the 'trigger scan' machines, neat.
Also unfortunate that we can't ask Mike Walker what testing he did to draw these conclusions, nor how much of a difference it makes in accuracy. I'm thinking it's one of those things on the fringes that very few people can shoot well enough to detect. But some folks will pay big bucks and go to a lot of trouble to get that last 0.001" out of the group.
A Mauser striker makes a big 'thump!' Easy enough to dry fire and see. How much of an accuracy difference does it make? I don't know. For the critters that my son and I used sporterized K98 actions on hunting rifles, not enough to prevent heart-shooting a whitetail at 100 yards or so. At least he can with his gun .....
I also, when I put a 4x-12 OA scope on my CZ452, started noticing my heartbeat in the scope for the first time, when the range was dialed back to 25 or 50 yards. That's moving the gun and a source of accuracy errors, though maybe less for someone who is a better shooter, than me.
My lever guns will 'bounce' differently on rock-hard sandbag, than they will with my hand between the forend and sandbag. Why do they do that worse than my bolt guns? I don't know. Does it have anything to do with lock time? No clue.
Until someone can have a seance with Mike Walker, and get some clarification, I think we're mostly arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Also unfortunate that we can't ask Mike Walker what testing he did to draw these conclusions, nor how much of a difference it makes in accuracy. I'm thinking it's one of those things on the fringes that very few people can shoot well enough to detect. But some folks will pay big bucks and go to a lot of trouble to get that last 0.001" out of the group.
A Mauser striker makes a big 'thump!' Easy enough to dry fire and see. How much of an accuracy difference does it make? I don't know. For the critters that my son and I used sporterized K98 actions on hunting rifles, not enough to prevent heart-shooting a whitetail at 100 yards or so. At least he can with his gun .....
I also, when I put a 4x-12 OA scope on my CZ452, started noticing my heartbeat in the scope for the first time, when the range was dialed back to 25 or 50 yards. That's moving the gun and a source of accuracy errors, though maybe less for someone who is a better shooter, than me.
My lever guns will 'bounce' differently on rock-hard sandbag, than they will with my hand between the forend and sandbag. Why do they do that worse than my bolt guns? I don't know. Does it have anything to do with lock time? No clue.
Until someone can have a seance with Mike Walker, and get some clarification, I think we're mostly arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
"The Bolt Action Vol. 1 by Stuart Otteson was referenced a lot in this writing. It has the most extensive description of lock time that I’ve seen. There are 24-pages of definitions and formulas used to calculate lock time for your firearm in the appendix." Kurt Martonik, Gunsmithing Journal
61 - 80 of 93 Posts
Shooters Forum
A forum community dedicated to Sport shooters, owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about optics, hand casting bullets, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Recommended Communities
