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CZ 452American

4369 Views 92 Replies 20 Participants Last post by  Mr. 22
I bought a CZ 452 American .22 rifle about 10 years ago and have never fired it. It's a nice rifle but it lacks sights and the trigger is terrible. I bought a Timney trigger for it from Brownells and need to make time to install it. I like to have sights on my .22's. I normally do my own gunsmithing and have mounted sights on centerfire rifles no problem but this rifles's muzzle is .572" at the muzzle and am afraid that I'm not going to be able to get very many threads in the wall thickness of that light barrel. A Williams short ramp only allows one screw unless I make provision for another. Been looking for a band type ramp but all I can find are meant for larger diameter barrels. Anyone have any Ideas? Hate to do a sweat on job, it has such a nice blue job on it. I have a like new Weaver V22A that I can use on it in the mean time but sights would be nice.
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I don't know if I'm enlightened or disheartened reading this thread? Maybe, sometimes there's to much explain? If it ain't broke don't fix it? If it works? Some things appear to be unduly complex and or over engineered? Some try to solve a problem that honestly doesn't exist (imho). When folks honestly account for all the factors and influences that effect or affect 'triggers' and then throw in our collective inability to control them? We likely end up chasing our tail, I don't know about y'all, but I'm getting dizzy.
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DuPont required all engineers to keep 'notebooks' so complete one guy can take the other's job. Walker's stack is several thousand pages of scribbled math and geometry and notes, mostly to do with the Model 721 and the .222Remington. It is more a diary while creating and running the custom shop, it is a very good guided of what's important to accuracy.
I've said several times it would make a great book, but what he found is now 'common knowledge' and shows in every rifle match. The 40X was the first rifle to give an accuracy guarantee. HE knew how to make a rifle shoot well and it started with the action.
The .222 research is very enlightening as to his ideas based on many years of BR competition and access to every ballistics lab and test range a designer could want.

He tested MANY rifles in the vibration test. He tested rigidity of actions with rails as opposed to tubular actions. He did all the test and many of the results is seen in Remington rifles. BTW-- The 1950 Model 70's trigger was the 'quietest' of all but the direct acting Mauser types are close behind. All those studies are in black and white and presumably publicly available since their release in Dec. 2014. Fifty cents a page for a case file with half million pages of exhibits restrains curious researchers, but I can give the case the information was released for.

Why did I get paid to read the notebooks of four engineers? Trying to find the actual 'use' of the Walker trigger connector. I have his testimony (2 vol) but a company man to the last....at 104 years old.

I've seen those trigger machines/plotters work dozens of times. It shows geometry is extremely important to a safe trigger. Exact geometry is too expensive for gun companies to accomplish within budget. Canjar made his own graphic trigger analyzer using a spinning disk and stylus.

I'm with pudfark-- It was a throw away remark meant to encourage critical thinking. It did that. Minutia of trigger pull as about #104 of things to consider for a better group.

I've seen several prototypes of the Walker set trigger and the parts of one in a bag. Notice they produced the 2 oz which the Germans invented Bob Hart invented. It is what became the Remington 2 Oz. It has less vibration. ;)
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Jack, Pudfark, I am .... well I am. 4ms, 8ms lock time vs. my wobble (muscle instability) is more to the tune of ½ sec & reaction time more like ¼ sec. So in the grand scheme of things, lock time is pretty far down the list. Shooting even pistols I can see my heart beat.

I strongly suspect stance, trigger control, breath control, etc. all biological, play a MUCH greater part in hitting our targets vs. a 0.004 second difference in lock time.

Walkers research sounds intresting but mostly unobtainium due to cost quoted. Doing the research again, again costly. If you believe the latest great gadget will help, remember the great saying "if you believe or don't believe, you're probably right."

Off my soap box.
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Time is still what you make of it. Take that time (which is pretty cheap) and use it to improve your shooting ability no matter what you shoot.

Unmolested, out of the box 700 Sendero SFII in 300RUM at 500 yards. Please discount the .243 Win hole to the right.



Yes, we've spent a lot of time getting to know each other 😁 and time is lots cheaper than anything else, especially fancy widgetry to test lock time, trigger vibration and the cornucopia of other things we blame misses on.

RJ
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This reminds me of Trap Shooters arguing about a 1 1/8 load @ 1200 fps. out of one hull being softer shooting than out of another. Or one powder with the same velocity with the same shot charge "feels" softer because its 1.2 milliseconds slower. Give me a break.
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Minutia multiplied by 1000.

Shooting more makes you better. Better triggers CAN make you better. I didn't shoot 6-8 hundred clay targets a week or 2-3 hundred rounds a day of 45 to test the triggers. I did it to get better. I recently shot an exceptional group out of my 204 Ruger which has a horrible trigger. But overcame it.

I shot A LOT in my 20's and 30's. My shotgun skills have diminished, and heavy handgun loads are no longer that fun anymore. But I can still enjoy BR rifle with at least as good results I got when I shot it a lot.
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An intresting (?) anecdote. Way back when, a freind brought over what I remember as an Iver-Johnson .22 top break revolver that he claimed was shot out/broke. He shot a 25 yd group more suggestive of an open cyl 12 gauge @ 45 yds. I took the gun & shot about (old memory) a 3" group, same gun & ammo. The trigger in single action mode was very heavy, long, gritty, w/lots of over travel, the grip way to small, all in all a very poor match for my gorilla size mitts.

Moral of the story, breath, trigger, stance, etc. control have more to do with achieving accuracy than the mechanics. Shoot more, play mechanic less!
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True story -

Years ago, I found a Remington 511 in a gun shop that had been poorly (at best) drilled and tapped for a scope. The gun had a nice finish on the metal and a decent stock and a shiny bore, but there weren't 3 of the 4 holes in a straight line, and none of them pointed up at the same angle. I gave it to my dad to fix all that. He soldered in some screw plugs into the old holes, then using a mill D&T'd the gun for scope bases. I did this so my son would have a decent .22 LR rifle to learn to shoot with. And the gun will shoot - half inch 5 shot groups at 25 yards are easy, with bulk ammo. Never shot any target ammo in it.

So I take my (young) son to a local range and we get set up. He's on my right and there's some of the 'shorty AR' crowd on my left, making a deafening racket (frankly I'd vote to have muzzle breaks outlawed for the nuisance they are, and REQUIRE anything with a barrel less than 18" to have a suppressor). We're all shooting at 25 yards.

My son gets bored pretty quick shooting groups so he starts shooting smiley faces and whatnot in his target. No big deal, he's having fun and I can see from his target what he's doing. Fun is what it's about.

Eventually, he gets bored at that and stops shooting and I glance over to see what he's doing. He's curious about what the other shooters are doing and is looking at their targets through his scope. The most confused, jaw-dropping look comes over his face.... and he looks at me, and the body language reads, "DAD..... what on earth??????"

Most of their targets were just random bullet holes sprayed here and there. I'm not even sure they were on paper every time at 25 yards, judging from some of this holes being near the edge of the paper. My son is in grade school and it is boggling his mind that ADULTS aren't shooting as good as him! I just shrug my shoulders and smile at him. Mind you, EVERYONE is shooting from the bench - it's required on that range.

So, if we can charitably call 12" patterns on the paper 'groups,' then that's 48 MOA 'accuracy' and I seriously doubt that lock time is playing into that. Would a trigger that breaks better help? It sure wouldn't hurt! My son and I build an AR a few years later and the trigger the gun came with was pretty awful. It has smoothed up a little over the years and is moderately tolerable. Even with that he shoots it a LOT better than those guys did. I hate to paint the AR crowd as all being that poor of skill level (some folks are getting amazing accuracy and the service rifle shooters are nothing to sneeze at), but clearly a LOT of new shooters are thinking that's the platform to start with, when they have no training or experience. I've seen it many times before.

We forget that not everyone is a crack shot, and can discern minute, theoretical accuracy nuances. I know I don't shoot enough anymore to, and for my hunting rifles, even in my best form, I probably never could have. Dunno where lock-time differences start showing up; maybe if the gun is under 1 MOA. Just guessing. Most of my bolt guns will shoot around 1MOA for 3 shots, if I'm on my game and with careful handloads. Levers maybe 1.5 MOA if I'm having a good day. ARs, to me, are difficult to handle off the bench vs. bolt guns. Lever guns are in between, as far as bench shooting technique. I've shot a gun with a set trigger - once - and that takes some getting used to. But I can see how some folks might like them.

So, if a better trigger helps someone stay on target, more than a lock time reduction will, that may be a good thing.

My ex father-in-law, since gone to the game fields in the sky, had opportunities to shoot running jack rabbits with full power rifles. He was also an excellent trap shooter. But he never could have afforded a set trigger and can't ask him anyway. He's one of the few people I've ever met that had experience shooting running game, and he'd sometimes put it to use jump-shooting deer, from the stories he told.

If I really wanted to find out whether a set trigger was more important than lock time, I'd put one on my $99 Gamo spring piston air rifle and shoot it standing for score. Even off sandbags, poor follow through shows up on target, quick! And that at 10 yards or less.
The 48MOA AR guys never had a chance to learn on a Remington 511 the way I and you son did...
I learned on a very early Mossberg 46B. I still have it. Amazingly crisp trigger pull.
DuPont required all engineers to keep 'notebooks' so complete one guy can take the other's job. Walker's stack is several thousand pages of scribbled math and geometry and notes, mostly to do with the Model 721 and the .222Remington. It is more a diary while creating and running the custom shop, it is a very good guided of what's important to accuracy...
DuPont also required all of its employees to live on the property. That way there was a lot more assurance that nothing went wrong (BOOM!!).

I have one word for lock-time... KLEINGUENTHER ! !
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DuPont also required all of its employees to live on the property. That way there was a lot more insurance that nothing went wrong (BOOM!!).

I have one word for lock-time... KLEINGUENTHER ! !
I toured the Kleinguenther shop in Seguin back in the mid 80's and thought his work was astounding. Too bad he was taken away too soon. I think his shop is still open in some capacity though. One of the few muzzle brakes I found to be NOT terrible even though not a big muzzle brake fan.
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I toured the Kleinguenther shop in Seguin back in the mid 80's and thought his work was astounding. Too bad he was taken away too soon. I think his shop is still open in some capacity though. One of the few muzzle brakes I found to be NOT terrible even though not a big muzzle brake fan.
@JWSmith1959, that is so awesome! I have been a fan for a long time. I own 3! 2 .22's that are so incredible! One has the most outstanding piece of wood and the other has the DST's! Then, I also own one of his shotguns, a Side by Side. Great history. I owned a 30-06 that was absolutely incredible, but not my favorite caliber. Someone saw it and wanted it a whole lot more than me, and offered me an obscene amount of money for it. Now he has the most beautiful and accurate 06, I have ever seen!
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