[Harry Knutz]

Hello,

I have been seeing some DeBeers Rifle stocks for sale recently, Can anyone tell me the history of this company? The stuff looks decent, It needs a lot of work to finish, But that's probably the way most stocks were before cnc came into wide use.

 

[JBelk]

Never heard of them. Semi-inlet quality is not improved by CNC unless it's a very simple stock. Pantographs are more accurate for quality work.
I saw one for an M1 Carbine on ebay. That looks like was turned on the cheapest, pantograph around...maybe the one Herter's used.
Such stocks are as accurate as the pattern they were made from, +/- a bunch. Mid '60s Bishops come to mind.

 

[tdoyka]

i looked at a couple and some of them looked good, some don't. in the some don't, i noticed that it was off centered action and i noticed that the barrel channel needs cut.

i use Richards stocks because i am the one who does sanding and finishing.
Richards Microfit Stocks (richardsmicrofitgunstocks.com)

Boyds stock does the finishing
Hardwood Gunstock Manufacturer | Boyds Hardwood Gunstocks (boydsgunstocks.com)

 

[Harry Knutz]

Yes, I have used and still use Richards microfit, Excellent stocks and designs. DeBeers is long gone, I would think they were around in the 60's or 70's. Someone must have found an old shop or wharehouse full of them, Or a gunsmiths estate that had a good supply of them, Because I am seeing them for sale here and there. Just wondering if anyone knew the history on them.

 

[tdoyka]

there's also a guy that does custom stocks, i think that they are unfinished but i'm not too sure.

Fajen and Bishop Custom Gunstocks - Manitou Custom Guns LLC

 

[JBelk]

He's got a great pantograph, no doubt. Don Allen and George Hoenig machines are the very best.
It's good to know somebody is duplicating the old ones, again.

 

[Harry Knutz]

Never heard of them. Semi-inlet quality is not improved by CNC unless it's a very simple stock. Pantographs are more accurate for quality work.
I saw one for an M1 Carbine on ebay. That looks like was turned on the cheapest, pantograph around...maybe the one Herter's used.
Such stocks are as accurate as the pattern they were made from, +/- a bunch. Mid '60s Bishops come to mind.

Boyd's stocks are all CNC Machined. I have used a few, One of them is not a simple stock.

 

[Darkker]

"Boyd's" is the retail name for Rutland Plywood, and are all built in duplicators. Since "Richard's" buys stocks from RPC, guess how they are made?😉

Unless it's truly a very small boutique company, odds are that it's the same sourcing.

Cheers

 

[Harry Knutz]

"Boyd's" is the retail name for Rutland Plywood, are all built in duplicators. Since "Richard's" buys stocks from RPC, guess how they are made?😉

Unless it's truly a very small boutique company, odds are that it's the same sourcing.

Cheers

From Boyd's Website:

All finished stocks have been CNC inlet to Boyds House Action. Variations may exist from firearm to firearm, minor fitting may be required to get that perfect fit to your firearm.

 

[Harry Knutz]

I know how Richards Microfit does their stocks, I have personally been inside of their shop, Yes they use duplicators that are ancient.

 

[JBelk]

to Boyds House Action.

That means 'pattern' which means pantograph duplicator. They probably have a robot 'follow me' instead of some poor guy bent over a duplicator all day. How many spindles, how tight the bearings? Both have a tremendous effect on results.
"CNC" works great on inletting jobs like a 10-22 and there's nothing to beat it for routing signs. Accuracy depends on the program. Where did that come from?
A pattern machine makes all the mistakes of the pattern. Is the pattern first generation or ninety-ninth? (story behind that)

Custom cutting of a stock takes a pattern that his been glassed with your action into a stock pattern with the shape you want, then your blank is cut according to that accurate pattern. The size of stylus compared with the cutter gives the 'plus or minus' of the fit. Such jobs are many times slurp fits, but a machine is still constrained to radiused corners. They can't inlet or shape like a person.

 

[Darkker]

Lett me clarify and articulate a little more thoroughly.

Boyd's had been using somewhat automated duplicators(probably correctly named as Hank explains above) on the blanks RPC was churning out. Up until not terribly long before the fire. Whether or not that is still the case, I do not know.
My use of "duplicator" was a rather vague, and probably not terribly accurate for nuanced differences in machines.

Remember there's always a little wiggle, in sales propaganda. Nosler says they meticulously weigh powder charges. As of just a few years ago on a factory tour(the claim still made at the time), that is most assuredly not the case. Like any factory of significant size, they charge by volume. The room full of Dillons were running hard and fast, but there were no staff standing over balance beam scales. 🙂

Cheers

 

[Harry Knutz]

Start the video at 14;00

 

[Harry Knutz]

THis stuffs 10 years ago

 

[Harry Knutz]

 

[Harry Knutz]

Boyds puts out too much volume to be doing things the old way. Don't get me wrong, I have even recently been considering a $1500.00 duplicator, And I still might do it.

 

[JBelk]

I doubt very seriously Boyd's is putting out more stocks that Fajen and Bishop in the '60s. They were the biggest of a dozen companies making semi-inlets.
When Herret's was running full blast, they made 300 Contender stock sets a day. The five axis CNC made Peterbuilt gear shift knobs. CNC is great for many things, but wooden gunstocks is not one of them, UNLESS its simple and many guns are now designed simple enough 'program mills' (CNC, tape, cam-operated, power assisted) can make them.
Remember the goal is not perfection of a firearm, the goal is to be as cheaply made as possible. It's all economics.

 

[crooked creek]

Here's a couple of places in Missouri still doing it nicely, look at the Wenig inventory stocks for shotguns, $7500 !:

https://www.macongunstocks.com/

Wenig Custom Gunstocks

wenig.com

 

[Darkker]

Boyds puts out too much volume to be doing things the old way. Don't get me wrong, I have even recently been considering a $1500.00 duplicator, And I still might do it.

I think you may really enjoy a duplicator, might be surprised how close to some commercially available stocks it is.

I found a few things interesting in your video links, as comparing to what I think of as a typical CNC machine.
They were using a program which assumed some standard dimensions of the work piece, rather than setting the work piece in and having the machine probe and verify actual edges. Clearly it works well enough for the purpose, and ultra precision(thinking Boyd's-type products) isn't the goal. Related to that acceptable error range, did you note in the Laguna video that the host actually referred to it as a 4-axis router? I think that is interesting, sort of a division between "classic" CNC tollerances and what is used for a gunstock.

Cheers

 

[MikeG]

CNC is as accurate, or inaccurate, as it is programmed to be. The challenge with CNC profile on the outside of a stock is that the stock is a LOT of complex curves that blend into each other. Writing the code for that would be something else! Inside dimensions would be far easier. Program the barrel contour, receiver dimensions, etc., and 'remove' those from the blank. Plus clearance for the trigger assembly, and so on.

So, a duplicator that can merely follow the profile of an existing stock would be a lot easier to set up for external dimensions than CNC. With quick-change tooling, most of the interior profiles of the inletting could be done fairly easily, except that square corners and square bottomed recesses aren't the forte of rotating tools. Could get pretty close as long as the end user is willing to get the chisels out and finish it up.