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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
i saw a piece on shooting the bg ,,last night.. it advocated two to the chest an one to the face..
for me an my 38 .. the upperchest an face is primary hit..even with a .380..
i can do it an use to practice just that..
i do this as i believe a neck or face shot is a quicker stopper.. i don t care if he is killed [in fact i hope he isnt].. but a face shot is gonna be hard to walk through .. no matter how drugged he is..many have different practices.. i just want to stop the guy so i can get away..if possible im leaving the scene if no witnesses are there..this to avoid ct..right or wrong ,,this is my chosen first shot method assuming lead is not flying yet.. after lead is flying you just hit him where you can.jmo ..slim
ps i might add ,,the face is just like the easyest place to hit, for me, if i have time to aim at short range[12 ft etc]
any farther than that ,,i ll trust my evasive escape methods ,if theres any cover available.
 

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You talk to the defense instructor guys and they say aim for the sternum (upper half of torso) for body shots and bridge of the nose for head shots. A hit in either place has massive lethal impact, and near misses are still fairly effective. The idea is to end the shootout as quickly as possible.
 

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stopping shots

I think what he is trying to ask is the proper techniques to employ when one feels his life may be in danger. It is referred to in instructional circles as the 'Failure to Stop Drill" Two aimed shots to the COM or called the Thorasic Cavity. This is the general chest area from the top of the lung field....out to the edge of each lung and down to the diaphragm. All the major body organs are housed there. The "Kill Shot" is the Crano-Ocular shot..just off the bridge of the nose. It is a precision shot and must be taken ...only if the assailant(BG) is still a threat to you. With Dry Practice this drill can be successfully completed in a matter of seconds. The Thorasic shots should slow his attack down or immobilize him...if not the head shot will stop his attack...guaranteed...!!!
 

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I have taken and given classes in close quarters combat with a fire arm. I use a S&W 340 PD, it is a 357 Magnum, but I shoot HydraShoks 38 +P in it. This is my carry piece as well as home defense. So i try to practice twice a month live fire.

The distances that are critical, 5 feet, 10 feet, 15 feet and 20 feet, plus practice under 5 feet also. The human head is generally smaller than the human chest, but some egos may say different. I suggest that you run 100 yards and then fire at your targets, get the blood pressure up, heart rate going fast and the Adrenalin pumping. Do your shooting in subdued lighting and in the dark. If you carry during the day practice in the daylight.

Figure out what type of flash light you are going to keep with your gun and check the batteries and bulb at least twice a month, generally during practice. I have tried many of the police force types of stances with flash lights, I prefer the modified FBI stance, If your flashlight and gun are in the same spot, you can become a quick target. The modified FBI stances is simple if you are right handed, your pistol is in your right hand, don't worry too much about sighting, so have the pistol out away from your body in a chest high position. Your flash light is in your left hand and your left arm is extended away from your body. You can see the perp, but perp is blinded by your flash light and possibly could attack the light.

Take 2 or 3 shots at the target which should be the perps chest. Stop shooting at that point, there maybe a partner right behind the perp. Save ammo for that dude.

The hardest part for many people is hitting the target at close range, people with gun experience want to aim instead you need to point and shoot.

Really simple rule, you draw your pistol, you must be ready to shoot on the spot. Many times home owners have their guns taken away from them because of hesitation.

My other home defense pistol is a Glock in 45, Of course my first line of defense is Rufus, my Black Lab.

Even thou Ohio and other states have the Castle Doctrine, my attonrey has told me to use factory ammo, not reloads and kill the perp. These are two issues of liability.

I am willing to learn other methods and have changed and adopted new methods over the years.

Hope this helps,

Jerry
 

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Deadly force training have had many turns over the years. When I first came into law enforcement the "double tap" was the fad. I never did really understand this. Granted, I believe anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice but firing two shots as fast as humanly possible even though the second shot was being fired when the recoil caused the muzzle to be at its highest position in this spectrum never made sense to me. This drill has faded out in most circles as people quickly realized that it actually makes more sense to fire the second, third, or any other shot as soon as the muzzle settles back down and if done correctly its almost a quick as a "double tap". The "two to the body, one to head" theory was mostly developed in response to the possibility of bad guys having body armor or just being so jacked up on drugs that body shots weren't getting the job done. This is by far not a new drill and has been around for many years and is still practiced.

Another interesting thing to think about is shooting in the same hole. This is what we all try to chase all the time on the range. We all want to shoot tight groups on paper but this might not be the best practice in a lethal situation. Think about it this way, if you want to stop another human would you be better off shooting three shots through one lung or one shot in each lung and another one in the heart. Obviously, the latter would facilitate more bodily damage and bleeding.

Every lethal force situation is different and this is why you have to vary training drills and reaction and not get stuck in a rut. The best shot for stopping a situation is a shot between the forehead and the mouth and within the outer edges of the eye sockets (basically about a 3-4" circle). This type of shot will instantly incapacitate anyone by disrupting the nerve impulses coming from the brain feeding the other parts of the body. Thus, if your life is in danger and you are in close enough proximity to be conducive to making this shot it would be better to forget the two to the body and just go for broke. Like I said every situation is different and this is a judgement that has to be made in a very timely fashion after the poop has hit the oscillator. Just my two pennies.
 

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Jerry you and I were typing at the same time. I like the point you make about point shooting, this is so true. In a lethal force situation you are not going to see your sights if someone is coming at your with a weapon or shooting at you. It's all about stimulus and reaction. You will make a decision, point your weapon and pull the trigger. This is why training is so important to staying alive. I'm not saying you should not train with sights, you should. It develops hand eye coordination between your grip and where you want the bullets to go. The most important part of point shooting is looking where you want the bullets to hit. There is a phenomenon referred to as eye gaze. This is the process of your eyes focusing on multiple points in a very minute amount of time. Such as, you see bad guy with gun in his hand. At this point you are looking at his hand or you would not have seen the gun. You decide you better take action and start drawing your gun as you are doing so your eye gaze should drift from looking at his gun hand to the place you want your bullet to impact. Then as you raise your gun your hands will automatically point to this area as you have trained them to do on the range but you probably won't see your sights. Your body will just take over. Your hands will extend and point toward the position of your eye gaze and you will engage. It more like wing shooting with a shotgun.

In a lot of deadly force encounters police officers have shot at or near a persons gun hand. The reason is they never took there eye off of it. You have to train yourself to look where you need to hit or you never will an you need to incorporate some point shooting into the training where your don't rely on the sights at all. Its actually pretty surprising how accurate a person can be without ever looking at a sight but its hard to make yourself do it the first few times since grandaddy and dad always taught us to line those sights up before we shot that tin can with our 22. Just like anything else its all about practice.
 

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RJ,

You pointed out the reason I used the modified FBI stance, I would rather have the perp shooting at my hand with the flashlight, it would be hard to hit, being small and blinding. Then 2 or 3 shoots in the chest. At 5 to 10 feet with civilian self defense ammo, these are or will be fatal shoots.

Back when I was in the Army, I ran every morning when we had to go to the range, It created the rush that you would feel in a combat situation, when things are hairy and unpredicatable.

For all of the forum readers out there, DO NOT SHOOT BLINDLY IN THE DARK! Bullets can go thru walls, your frig, your family.

Jerry
 

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I have also tried different types of light usage while shooting over the last many years. I prefer the gun mounted lights. I realized that when the light is on it creates a "target" to shoot at but you have to learn to be disciplined in the use of the light. You can't just turn it on and leave it on. You have to use it to momentarily illuminate your intended target, shoot, and then move so you are not in the same spot where your light was last seen. The gun mounted lights don't inhibit you natural shooting grip and they are always there when you need them.
 

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I have several of the last run sold to Sam's Club of the Element K2 flash lights, they are bright and use "AAA" batteries. It seemed that when the bugs were worked out, Sam's stopped buying them.

This choice was a compromise, the police type flashlights, high energy, fast rechargable cost a fortune and many of the hi output battery type use button batteries, which are expensive. So I thought I would give these flash lights a try, I also have maglites around the house just for in case situations. The bigger maglites are clumsy and heavy. A 6 D cell Maglite is a weapon in itself.

Jerry
 

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I like Surefire products. The G2 LED is hard to beat for the money. They are durable and put out a lot of light. I also have a Browning light that I really like. I don't know what the model is but it takes two CR123 batteries and puts out about 200 lumens. I carry a Blackhawk Gladius on duty every night but its a bit of an overkill for someone looking for a general use light and a little pricey at about $160.00 but it is my primary light. In my line of work and the hours I work you can never have too many lights or lithium batteries to feed them.

As far as the weapon mounted lights go the Streamlight TLR-1 is the best I've found for the money. It's case is anodized aluminum and it has a high output LED lamp that puts out over 100 lumens. They can be had for less than $100 if you shop around a bit.
 

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Gentlemen,
may I make a suggestion?

In the interest of lights and night time shooting, I would suggest going and playing paintball in the dark.

This is what we found as a team when I still lived in Oregon.
You turn on a light, you take fire immediately.
The fire will be aimed at the light.

Red dot sight lights can be seen in many cases in the dark by your opponent.
They will draw aimed fire immediately upon being seen.

The one and only time we saw a laser used, the laser shooter took multiple hits before firing upon his target.


I use the one hand with a flashlight away from my body approach for this reason.
I also will not hang lights or lasers on my weapons for SD for these reasons.

A .68 caliber paintball at 280-300 fps at 10-20 feet in the dark stings like :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
well the truth is we all have to wait until we do decide that stopping an bg is absolutely necessary ,,with deadly force..if that happens and i get off the first clean shot ,,its gonna be at what ive practiced at..be dumb to do anything else..but in the final time of action ,i ll just try to stoppim
wth what ever stops him..you can practice an try an be prepared ..but in that split second you just do the best you can..a lot is gonna depend on whether ive got my wife with me..if she s there i won t even give it a thought..if not let him have the wallet,,mabe .. but like i say that time will be a judgement call.i know me,,after 62 yrs..ive been the best i can be,, during this type situation.. afterwards an he s dead ,,i ll go into serious remorse at finally having to take a mans life..but not so much that i won t do it again ,,if its got to be..he s the one brings it on himself..
if he gets me.. i ll be home with my lord mabe,, an all my worries be over.mabe.jmo slim
ps michael.. ive stay away from lazer for that reason..it most time gonna be a point an shoot thing.. i don t need to be looking for no lil red dot.jmo
 

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The most important training for civilian self defense/CCW is the 'close quarters drill' (3 feet or closer). In this training you shoot with one hand in the 'rock and lock' position using the weak hand to 'fend' off the attacker. You can build from this 'base'.
 

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Got "Em

miestro, I bought the same flashlights pictured above,also from Sam's Club. IIRC they were $28 for a pack of two.

Pluses are they run on "AAA" batteries(not them super expensive 123's),they have a high and low setting(low is pretty bright),and where else can you get 150lumens for <$15 each.

About two weeks ago I helped a buddy track a small doe thru some fairly thick bamboo and the little lights are plenty even when used for the most part on the low power setting.

Wish now that I would have bought a couple of more packs. -----pruhdlr
 

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I've not taken a self-defense firearms class before. I am familiar with the double-tap, the 2 to chest + 1 to head, and other ideas as to what's 'best.' What I'm curious about is: Do self-defense firearms classes typically include the 'drill' wherein:

The 'attacker' starts to run as fast as they can upon hearing the signal.
At the same time, the 'student,' who is standing at ease, finds their firearm, draws, and fires at a silhouette target.
The first shot on target is the signal for a spotter to mark how far the 'attacker' got.

There are variations on the specifics here, and of course the attacker runs a different direction so as to stay out of the line of fire. The thing one learns from this exercise, though, is that you have absolutely zero chance of drawing and firing at an attacker who is within what most of us would think of as 'normal' or 'expected' gunfight range, unless you're very well-practiced. Even then, you almost have to be expecting the attack (like you would be in this drill) in order to have a prayer at any distance less than dozens of feet. For some people, it's dozens of yards. To me, this brought home the point that the various 'best' aiming and firing strategies are practically useless. I learned to point-shoot long ago, and I have no delusions that I'd have the opportunity to do anything other than that in a real-life, civilian gunfight.
 

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I generally tell right handed shooters, to carry a 2 pound weight in the left hand to build up that habd and arm. Then do some thing, like a computer game or similar activity lefted handed. This builds an ambidextrous set of hands, if you think your ambidextrous, change hands at the range, every few minutes.

Everyone, please remember shooting at 3 feet or less is difficult, but the perp maybe able to reach across that 3 feet to attack you. So practice, regularly.

Jerry
 

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If all this "training" is going into shooting a "perp", I wonder what kind of things you practice to avoid being in situations where self defense might be needed?

You can plan and rehearse all you want. If the real deal ever occurs, you'll draw (if you can clear the holster) and shoot while running away.
 
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