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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Tried to post my story. The board wouldn't let me, so open the txt document to read. I found an anti on Facebook and have started a conversation with him. Looking for help. Read document for more info.
 

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Here's a short summary of the value of guns in self defense vs. the risk of gun violence.

http://www.guntalk.com/site82.php


This subject has been studied in great depth by Lott and Kleck. Most self defense use of firearms does not involve a shooting. Just displaying the firearm prevents literally 100's of thousands of violent acts every year.

Remember, the police have no legal responsibility to protect you...even if they can get to you in time. Self defense is one of those inalienable rights that got us so worked up in 1776.

Mass shootings are a big concern (or excuse) these days for the gun banners. However, every mass shooting has ended by armed individuals stopping the event. Sometimes by police, sometimes citizens. Does it matter that the person stopping the shooting is not wearing a uniform? Wouldn't we all benefit if more citizens were capable of defending themselves, their families and others?

Good luck.
 

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If firearms are banned, no law abiding person will posess one, it would be open season for criminals, with many easy targets.
States with the highest carry rate also have the lowest crime rate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hey guys, thanks for the replies, but is there a reliable site (perhaps US government site) that has statistics to back this up? I suppose the NRA would be a good place to start, but he didn't seem like he respected the NRA very much. FBI or State/Federal websites would be great I think. Any other suggestions?
 

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Hey guys, thanks for the replies, but is there a reliable site (perhaps US government site) that has statistics to back this up? I suppose the NRA would be a good place to start, but he didn't seem like he respected the NRA very much. FBI or State/Federal websites would be great I think. Any other suggestions?
The above link I sent you refers to studies by Dr Lott and Dr. Kleck. You can google them and get mass quantities of data.

Also, the following site is very good.

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/
 

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The problem is you cannot argue with someone who does not want to accept the facts. The arguments have been the same for decades now. Here is a site that might help shed some stats on the situation, that is if they want to believe "REAL" statistics. http://www.gunfacts.info/
 

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bladsmith is right

http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=60230 This is a little conversation I had with some "ANTI"
If they are receptive to what your saying great, if they will engage in civil conversation great, Let them speak and then you can reply. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. That being said seems sheeple have a thirst for Kool-Aid?:eek: LOL
 

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Haha...sheeple.

Whatever you throw at him, just remember that maintaining civility is the only way you can even hope to get through to him. At the slightest hint of hostility he'll suddenly want out of the sane end of the discussion.
 

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Don't feel discouraged if you can't convince a rock. Some people have already made up their minds on this subject and just will not acknowlege a different viewpoint regardless of the facts you can provide. But you know what, they suddenly change their minds when they are the ones being threatened. See it all the time, e.g. anti shoots intruder.
 

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Matt,
I am a retired police officer with over 30 years 'on the street' no 'desk duty' and you can tell your misinformed friend:
1. The first few seconds of a violent confrontation will decide if you win or lose, or as the line form a song goes 'When the final showdown comes to pass a law book is no good'.
2. We as police are reactive, not proactive, as we must be in a FREE society. We only get called AFTER the damage is done.
3. I witnessed MANY violent crimes and most if not all of the victims who were able to talk said two things, "I never thought this would happen to me" (it ALWAYS happens to someone else), "I wish I had a gun to defend myself/home/ family".
Your misinformed friend has obviously not had the opportunity to feel the 'helpless/hopeless' feeling of the victim of a crime. Most people of this mind set change their mind if they are victimized.
4. Lastly see my signature line.:(
 

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I think Jim's comments are excellent, and carry more weight than the average commentator's, coming from a LEO who's been up close and personal with the aftermath of violent crime. Polls of police often show that while chiefs and other administrators will favor gun restrictions, the same department's officers on the street will be against them. That happened in Columbus, Ohio a few years back. Interviews with the beat cops on TV illustrated exactly what Jim said: Without a crystal ball they had no way to be at the right place at the right time to intercede on behalf of victims. While they found it satisfying to catch and convict perpetrators after the fact, they usually could not undo the damage done. They felt it would be much better if the victim had the means of stopping the crime from occurring in the first place.

Regardless of the effectiveness of public policy deterrents, crime doesn't usually drop to zero. When you become a victim in one of the remaining crimes, that book of statistics doesn't protect you any more than the law book does. If you are disarmed by a law under that circumstance, that law has supplemented the criminal's means and opportunity. That's what gun laws do to law abiding people: enforce victimization.

As to the specific comment that got you started in communicating with this person, IIRC, one of Kleck's studies showed that after Florida became the first state with a shall-issue carry permit system, over the next few years the rest of the country's violent crime rose 20%, while Florida's went down 20%. In other words, the gun permits were the only differential. This was in the 80's when crack cocaine was in its ascendancy. I don't think Florida's total crime cost went down (addicts still needed their fixes), but the perpetrators switched from mugging and other crimes where they had to confront the victim, to boosting cars and other property crimes. Property crimes are not desirable, but they're a heck of a lot better than having to send victims to the hospital or the morgue.

An interesting aside is that less than 2% of the eligible Florida population got carry permits. It was the deterrent effect of the perception victims might be armed that made the criminals change method. Violent criminals know the police have to read them their rights and and treat them with some degree of care. Many have been arrested repeatedly and know how to work the system and may not even mind some prison time. But an armed victim is unpredictable and may be in a panic. You don't want a panicky person pointing gun at you. When the victim is in the position of judge, jury, and executioner and doesn't need further evidence to convict, there is no way to game that system.
 

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Tell your friend that ...it's better to need a lawyer....than a doctor !!!! Even then, pointing a lawbook at an intruder at 4:00a.m. won't get the job done. Whatever they entered your house to do, you can bet your &@%$ they are going to get accomplished !!! If that won't sway your friends opinion, tell him about the Austrailian's FIASCO !!! They spent between 500-600 million dollars collecting all of the guns and their crime, namely home invasion, rose by some 60% !!!! When Dade County, Florida issued concealed-carry permits, their crime rate declined 30%. Occasionally facts don't lie !!!!! HD1
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks for all the great info guys! It's helpful. Now here's the curve ball:

- this guy owns a gun
- He spent time in the military
- He's married with kids, and wants the guns gotten rid of for saftey sake

Now I know what you all are going to say "He's a hypocrite", "What, isn't he proud of his service? He should know better!", or "What better way to protect the kids than with S&W?" But I don't think saying any of those things to him would be the right approach.

I get the feeling he's had some very bad experience with guns before. Rock solid facts I think would be the best approach. I'll keep talking to him and don't worry, I'm VERY civil. I apologize so much, you'd think I'm Canadian! :p

Keep the info coming. I'll keep you posted.
 

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Tell him there are several inexpensive gun locking devices available on the market. Tell him that a good soldier "NEVER GIVES UP HIS GUNS" !!! If safety is truely the issue, an unloaded never killed anybody. I too have spent time as a proffessional soldier and have seen the SHTF. That is probably why I am NEVER very far away from a weapon. I've seen firsthand what can happen if you don't have any !!! My son was raised with guns stashed "ALL OVER THE HOUSE" and was raised with respect for them. We've never had an issue !!! Fear is only misguided respect !!! It appears your friend is working soley on fear. I wish him luck !!! HD1
 

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I apologize so much, you'd think I'm Canadian! :p
Haha...it's always funny to hear somebody say it, but it never fails to amaze me how true it is!

As for the rest of you...you should all pack up those facts and opinions, bind them tightly, and send them on over to Mr. Stephen Harper...sure could use some concealed weapons up here (especially Edmonton)!
 

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Thanks for all the great info guys! It's helpful. Now here's the curve ball:

- this guy owns a gun
- He spent time in the military
- He's married with kids, and wants the guns gotten rid of for saftey sake

Now I know what you all are going to say "He's a hypocrite", "What, isn't he proud of his service? He should know better!", or "What better way to protect the kids than with S&W?" But I don't think saying any of those things to him would be the right approach.

I get the feeling he's had some very bad experience with guns before. Rock solid facts I think would be the best approach. I'll keep talking to him and don't worry, I'm VERY civil. I apologize so much, you'd think I'm Canadian! :p

Keep the info coming. I'll keep you posted.
I think he's jivin' you or is a whacko (for whatever reason). Either way you may be wasting your time.

These factoids about him do not add up coherently.
 

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Hey guys, thanks for the replies, but is there a reliable site (perhaps US government site) that has statistics to back this up? I suppose the NRA would be a good place to start, but he didn't seem like he respected the NRA very much. FBI or State/Federal websites would be great I think. Any other suggestions?
I wouldn't consider a US ogvernment site "reliable." They are, rather, political.
 

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Okay, let's approach this not as if we are trying to get him to switch sides.
That doesn't seem to be the case.
Let's face it. He has been around guns, has used guns and owns a gun currently according to the info given us so far. Also, according to the info we have so far, he wants to get rid of the gun because of the safety factor. I can only presume he is thinking of his family's safety and a possible AD.

Okay, the question becomes, how do you help him understand that he can work toward resolving this fear in a rational way without the name calling and other petty baloney.

If he is former military, he has some experience.
Maybe.
A lot of Air Force guys do not.
But Im thinknig constructive steps.

First and foremost, firearms safety education for the whole family.

Mechanical deterrent ideas:
Unloaded firearms do not shoot people.
Trigger locks help.
Placing the firearm in a locked box, electronic access by code or?
Gun safe.

If he feels like he is in control, and has the knowledge to take care of himself and his family to the best of his ability and that includes the fireams safety and security aspect as well as what Mall Ninjas feel security is all about too. ;)
 

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Ask him if he wears his seat belt, even on days he does not plan on crashing the car? I've found it's a very effective question for the logic-impaired... :p
 
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