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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've noticed that my Rem 700 30-06 likes hotter loads. I use Hornady 165 BT, 165 SST, and Barnes 165 triple shock bullets. When ever I try a new powder and work up, the best groups at or close to max load. This would indicate that my barrel's "sweet spot" is with a faster load as well.
My questions are such:
Is it typical to be able to find the "sweet spot" by loading up 1.5 grains at a time and watching the groups progressively get smaller and then worse as the velocity gets too wild? Or is it really just a matter of getting lucky. Should I load in smaller increments like .5 grains?

Note. I never exceed max loads, and the best groups (acceptable) are 1 to .75 inches for me.
Oh! And it is glass bedded and floated already.
Thanks for your input.

Travis
 

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I have a 25-06 that seems to like it hot. I've tried different powders and bullets and it shoots better with the loads pretty steamy. It's the exception rather than the rule, Most of my other rifles like their loads backed off some for best accuracy.
 

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My Sig .30-06 prefers loads close to max as well - with Hornady's SST (165 and 180). My S&W .30-06 (Howa) preferred loads on the lower end of the spectrum. If the 1.5 grain incremental approach works - keep doing it. If you find yourself stymied, go to the old-school method of .5 grain increments. Employ both methods if you need to. Play with your OAL to tighten the groups. There's no reason your rifle can't produce 0.5" groups or better, especially with the SST. My 180 SST is seated at 3.245" over 53.6 grains of RL-17, Remington brass, Remington 9 1/2 LR primer @ 2694 fps. I've got groups of five shots smaller than a dime. I get the same results with Hornady's 180 grain Interbond too (same recipe). My 165 SST is over 57.3 grains of IMR 4350 (same components) at 3.335" and get 2900 fps - also dime-sized groups. I'm sure my rifle can be tuned even better (I'm too old to fine tune). Your mileage may vary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Okay, so I have the attention of some of you more experienced re loaders...
However, I think I need to clarify my question. Will I see a lineal curve to my "sweet spot" ? As in will I work up a load progressively and find that the groups get tight at a certain point, then there is too much powder and then I get more fliers?
 

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I think you might want to use a smaller increment than 1.5 grains of powder -you might jump past the most accurate load.
Try going up one grain at a time, at least initially. When you find the best load, try a small increment below and above your best load, like 1/2 grain.
IME, rifles are individuals = some will progressively shoot better as the best load is approached, but many do not.
 

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When i get a midrange load with a powder my rifle seems to like.I tinker with the seating depth to find the sweet spot where it seems to shoot the best.I do this in 5 thousands increments.I do this to save time,cause if you work up powder to max load and then want to adjust seating depth you have to back off po9wder charge and then work back up again.You can mess around with primers,but for me I haven't notice all that much difference in accaracy between them.Sure maybe if I was a benchrest shooter I'd be more picky But I hunt and shoot for fun.I hunt strickly with my handloads cause there are the more accurate than factory amo which ain't all that hard to do.IF you don't already have one buy a chronograph,they will save time handloading and you can get one around $100
 

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When I started reloading, I was taught to pick the right bullet for the task then start at the manual's minimum charge and load 3-5 rounds, then 3-5 rounds at each increase of 0.5 grains of powder. That's Round One. You'll see two groups that are pretty close in size, with the rest being spread much larger. Round Two consists of starting with the lowest charge of the two best groups and loading 3-5 rounds, then increasing the charge by 0.1 grain (again, with 3-5 shot groups). Round Three is taking that "best group" and loading several 5-shot strings to prove your load and get an group average. You'll find your best grouping load that way.

The problem with that is you must keep everything else constant, especially OAL. The problem is that NONE of those may be your ideal OAL. It's time consuming and considerably more expensive than when I started reloading almost 30 years ago. In the end, OAL notwithstanding, I did (and you will) find your best grouping load. Every rifle is different and my recipes probably won't be the best for your rifle. Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.
 

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I've noticed that my Rem 700 30-06 likes hotter loads. I use Hornady 165 BT, 165 SST, and Barnes 165 triple shock bullets. When ever I try a new powder and work up, the best groups at or close to max load. This would indicate that my barrel's "sweet spot" is with a faster load as well.
My questions are such:
Is it typical to be able to find the "sweet spot" by loading up 1.5 grains at a time and watching the groups progressively get smaller and then worse as the velocity gets too wild? Or is it really just a matter of getting lucky. Should I load in smaller increments like .5 grains?

Note. I never exceed max loads, and the best groups (acceptable) are 1 to .75 inches for me.
Oh! And it is glass bedded and floated already.
Thanks for your input.

Travis

Travis,

A reloader's work is NEVER done! Every rifle I've ever loaded for just seems to have a personality of its own. Usually, I'll call it quits for now at a good level of accuray at an acceptable velocity.

Specific to your question: I pick the best bullet I want the rifle to shoot. Pick case and a CCI primer. Set an overall length for that bullet/cartridge combination. Then use 2 shot duplicate ladders spaced 1 to 1.5 grain apart for several powders. Then pick the "best powder" of the bunch. Sometimes at this point, I've found a good level of accuray at an acceptable velocity and sometimes its not.

If not, then I will decide whether to:
1) Change to another bullet OR
2) Try a different primer or case
2) Experiment with COL OR
3) Experiment with 0.5 gr powder incerments

Usually, When I call a load good and go to the production stage, I will still come back to it in the future for some futher experimenting or fine tuning.
 

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When I started reloading, I was taught to pick the right bullet for the task then start at the manual's minimum charge and load 3-5 rounds, then 3-5 rounds at each increase of 0.5 grains of powder. That's Round One. You'll see two groups that are pretty close in size, with the rest being spread much larger. Round Two consists of starting with the lowest charge of the two best groups and loading 3-5 rounds, then increasing the charge by 0.1 grain (again, with 3-5 shot groups). Round Three is taking that "best group" and loading several 5-shot strings to prove your load and get an group average. You'll find your best grouping load that way.

The problem with that is you must keep everything else constant, especially OAL. The problem is that NONE of those may be your ideal OAL. It's time consuming and considerably more expensive than when I started reloading almost 30 years ago. In the end, OAL notwithstanding, I did (and you will) find your best grouping load. Every rifle is different and my recipes probably won't be the best for your rifle. Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.

I follow this basic approach, except I usually don't do the final steps of .1 increments or changing OAL. I load for hunting purposes, and usually stop when I get 1 to 1.5 MOA accuracy with the right bullet at the desired velocity. If I had a private shooting range near home I woulkd probably try to eek out the best possible accuracy out of my guns, but it's a long drive to the gun club and frequently I'm sharing the range with several other shooters.

This weekend I'm building a protable shooting bench and will be setting up a 75 yard range on my son's 8 acre property. That should work for initial load testing, scope mounting, etc. When I get something worked up, I can go tot he club to use the 300 yard range for final tweeking and scope adjustments.
 

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Long distance work is fun, frustrating and challenging. Since moving west, my ranges have been within a 30-minute drive. Ranges in Florida, OTOH, were at least an hour + from home. I'm an accuracy freak (shooting .22 at ISU and National Matches at Camp Perry from age 12 - 20). I try to optimize each load. Your 75 yard set up will be a good start and should work for initial load development. Good luck!
 

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For years, probably from when I started loading back in the the 60s, I have begun working up loads making one grain steps until getting within a couple grains of published max. at which time I go to 1/2gr steps.

I have almost without exception, found my rifles to shoot best, at or close to max published loads.

There was an story in one of the gun mags. a few years back about tweaking bullet seating depth to finding the sweet spot for a given rifle.

The effect in changing the seating depth was said to be about like making adjustments with a Browning/Winchester "Boss" in that it changed the Harmonics" of the barrel during the bullet's trip down the length of the barrel.

In my limited testing, it seemed like this thought could be true.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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Travis,

Just to address your OP once more, 1.5 grain increments are big enough to skip over sweet spots on your way to one. Sweet spots can be as narrow as a quarter grain or so wide in some instances (though I prefer ones that are more forgiving of charge error). Read Newberry's method, linked to in the post Jason linked to. You'll discover most guns have multiple sweet spots, though some are better than others.

You should also be aware different bullets prefer different seating depths. You can use the round robin Newberry describes to find seating depth instead of powder charge by employing a starting load and varying seating depths over top of that in increments of a couple hundredths of an inch until you find something the bullet likes better than the others. You can then narrow it down further with a couple or three 0.005" increments either side of that first location. Once you have it, then go through the charge weight development.

Seating depth will affect what powder charge works best more than best powder charge affects best seating depth. That's one reason for finding seating depth first. Another is that a charge 10% or more below maximum will remain within normal maximum pressures even if the bullet touches the lands, so its a safer charge to go across the range of seating depths with.
 

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...

Seating depth will affect what powder charge works best more than best powder charge affects best seating depth. That's one reason for finding seating depth first. Another is that a charge 10% or more below maximum will remain within normal maximum pressures even if the bullet touches the lands, so its a safer charge to go across the range of seating depths with.
Nick,

A lot of us have noted that our best accuracy, in bottle-necked cases, comes with charges that are at or near maximum. I probably shouldn't type this out loud, but for a rifle I already know, I start load development with middling charges and work up in half-grain increments, because I almost always get the tightest groups around 95% of max. I confess that until I started reading some of your posts (and Newberry's method) I rarely adjusted the seating depth of my loads. I just seated .020" shy of the lands and worked up the powder charge until I had acceptable accuracy, which has rarely been difficult to find, using this method.

Thanks for opening my eyes to how critical seating depth is and what it can do to pressures when you're dropping near-maximum charges.
 

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Is it typical to be able to find the "sweet spot" by loading up 1.5 grains at a time and watching the groups progressively get smaller and then worse as the velocity gets too wild? Or is it really just a matter of getting lucky. Should I load in smaller increments like .5 grains?


Travis
If you use 1.5 gr increments you may bw wearing your gun barrel one day. Never ever jump by that large of an increment, especially if you are within 2 grs of the max load, and go one step farher. Check the max load in at least 3 manuels and use the lowest one to work up to and then proceed from there with a max .2 grn jump. I'm not fooling here one bit. When you have loaded a long time and studied different manuels and load recipes you will find exactly what I just said to be true.

Once you have a max load established then check accuracy for that load compared to what you shot previously. You will likely find one of the lower powered loads shoots better. Velocity is nothing if accuracy is not there.

Here is another thing to always remember and use as a precaution. Any load you work up in cooler weather you will find out to be too hot in hoter weather. So always record the temperature of when you worked up your load. Also always reaad and follow all reloading precautions written in your manuels.

For instance. I love Lyman realoading manuels as they have the largest variety of loads availabe, "but" there hot load listed is almost always too hot. That is why I said to check the loads in at least 3 different manuels. I usually always use the load listed for the type of powder I am using, starting 2 grns low at minimum and work up from there.

Your hot load as you call it giving better accuracy is really a little dangerous, especially to use for all seasons. Even a small change in temp, humidity of using the wrong primer is not good news.
 

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My .223 shoots most accurately at max and even .5 over max. Started a thread here a while ago about my cases splitting and caused a bunch of chaos between people saying I was way too hot and people saying the the hot load may not have caused the splitting. I have seriously tested this over and over again in large and small increments and determined that my rifle just likes my particular load hot. There is no way to talk around my data, thats just what it is.

Now, I sure would not be moving up in 1.5 grain increments especially in a rifle I didn't know or when approaching max loads. You can easily miss the sweet spot but more importantly over pressure can happen in a hurry. and if you failed to recognize a slight sign of over pressure and then dumped another 1.5 grains on top of that you just might end up "wearing your barrel" and I bet it don't look good on ya. Also I gained much improvement by adjusting seating depth. It's worth looking in to.

reloading is a science so enjoy the process. Be safe and good luck. Oh yea, and listen to unclenick.
 

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If you use 1.5 gr increments you may bw wearing your gun barrel one day. Never ever jump by that large of an increment, especially if you are within 2 grs of the max load, and go one step farher. Check the max load in at least 3 manuels and use the lowest one to work up to and then proceed from there with a max .2 grn jump. I'm not fooling here one bit. When you have loaded a long time and studied different manuels and load recipes you will find exactly what I just said to be true.

Once you have a max load established then check accuracy for that load compared to what you shot previously. You will likely find one of the lower powered loads shoots better. Velocity is nothing if accuracy is not there.

Here is another thing to always remember and use as a precaution. Any load you work up in cooler weather you will find out to be too hot in hoter weather. So always record the temperature of when you worked up your load. Also always reaad and follow all reloading precautions written in your manuels.

For instance. I love Lyman realoading manuels as they have the largest variety of loads availabe, "but" there hot load listed is almost always too hot. That is why I said to check the loads in at least 3 different manuels. I usually always use the load listed for the type of powder I am using, starting 2 grns low at minimum and work up from there.

Your hot load as you call it giving better accuracy is really a little dangerous, especially to use for all seasons. Even a small change in temp, humidity of using the wrong primer is not good news.
I have to agree wholeheartedly with you. Recently I was working on some loads with a new choice of powder for my 264 mag. I wanted to try some H1000 by Hodgdon but my older load books didn't have data for this powder so I went to Hodgdon's website. They listed a range of 65.5g to 69.7g for a load with 120g bullets so I started at 66.5 and increased by increments of .5g. At 67g I experienced pressure problems - difficult case extraction and flattened primers. The empty brass wouldn't even rechamber properly. After doing some more studying, I checked my Lyman book, 49th edition. I don't use it much for 264 mag loads since they only list for 140g bullets but their data listed a range for H1000 of 60g to 63g max, quite a difference!!!! Now I've got some bullets to tear apart. And I think I will start around 61g this time.

Lesson learned-Don't trust a single data source. Check several.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Okay, what I've gathered from this is that I should select one bullet like Barnes TSX 165gr, and one powder and ASSUME that I will be able to find an accurate load eventually. Is that correct?
My experience has been that my test loads are good (1-.75 inches) then the next time I shoot they string vertically or give 2.5 inch groups. That is why I want to find the ultimate load. The trouble is Barnes are so expensive to throw away. So what I have been doing is using Serria or Hornady to find the right powder combination, then switch to Barnes to prove the powder. I have never messed with seating depth because I don't know how you guys get that chamber measurement and how you can reliably turn your die down .005".

Now I can get .3-.6" 5-shot groups from my .260Rem Sako Finnlight, but of course that is not a Rem 700 either. So that leads me to believe that I'm doing something right, I just cant get this Rem 700 30-06 to behave.
I read the links about the ladder method and it makes sense. But I think what I have been doing is closer to round robin, except I would shoot 3 shots at each charge level and if none grouped well, that powder was out of the competition. So maybe I've been doing it all backwards and got lucky a couple times.
MY METHOD:
I select a Hornay SST, set my seating depth from a factory round, start loading just below midrange powder levels (usually 3-4 loads from mid to max) then go to the range with weighed cases the same bullets and depths, but different powder charges and maybe 2-3 different powder manufactures. If I got a good group I'd come home and make a few more at, above, and below that charge and test again. Eventually, I throw in Barnes and try them with a powder that I know is good or at least has potential. Since the TSX's require more powder than other bullets in my manual, I still have room to work up if I need to. Now, I'm not looking for a speedy deer bullet so I don't need max charges, but my rifle seems to prefer them.

Does my method make sense or am I just getting lucky every once in a while?
 

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LUCKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT YOU HAVEN'T BLOWN SOMETHING UP!

I have seen 50 - 100fps changes in just changing lots numbers on powder.

Do not change components, bullets, cases, lots of powder etc. without backing off from your top load and again testing for pressures, velocities and groups.

If you haven't already, go to three shot test groups.

Each rifle is a rule unto it self, and may or may not shoot well with a load developed in another fire arm.

Same goes with changing components, the firearm may or may not like the change.

If your lucky, it just shoots bad. If your not, well we don't want to go there.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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Tseaburg,

I get your thinking, but, alas, what you propose doesn't work except by accident. First, the Barnes bullet is harder than a jacketed bullet. Harder means the pressure will be a bit higher as the bullet goes into the lands of the rifling, and that will change the powder burn characteristic making it tend to peak higher and sooner. Even where that pressure difference isn't enough to cause a safety issue, it will shorten the barrel time of the bullet, and that will change the relationship between muzzle exit and barrel "vibration". It can walk you right off a sweet spot.

There is a reason you lower your powder charge at least 5% and work back up while watching for pressure signs any time you change a component, and that includes changing bullets. Even if their weight is the same, their hardness and exact diameter and bearing surface lengths often are not, so they don't work with the powder charge identically.

That brings up the second problem, which is the Barnes bullet is less dense than jacketed bullets. That means it will be longer than a similarly shaped jacketed bullet. The greater length causes two issues:
First, if you use the same COL as for a same-weight jacketed counterpart, the base is sticking deeper into the case. That subtracts from the powder space, which raises pressure even before you try to get this harder bullet into the throat.

Second, greater length will make the bullet less stable for a given rifling twist rate. If your .30-06 has the usual 10" twist, you've got plenty of spin for the Barnes TSX, but you need to be aware it will take longer to go to sleep than the shorter same-weight jacketed bullet. This will make it harder to get a good group at short ranges, like 100 yards, but it may compare very favorably at 300 yards.
In general, for short range precision, coaxiality (low measured bullet runout) of the finished cartridges and optimum seating depth will be more important to getting the long, lower density bullet to do well. Unfortunately, there is no substitute for testing with your actual bullet that will get your actual bullet to shoot well other than by felicity.

Regarding measuring seating depths, there are a number of methods. You can get considerable convenience using the Hornady LNL Overall Gage with a caliper, but it's not a requirement. To start out without one, remove the rifle bolt and push a bullet into the throat of the rifle with your finger, or push it in with the eraser end of a pencil. Hold it in place while, from the muzzle end, you insert a 1/4" wood dowel in until it lightly finds the tip of the bullet. Mark the dowel flush with the muzzle. (Many use a pencil, but a single-edge razor blade flush with the muzzle is more precise.)

Next, repeat the above using a loaded round at your usual seating depth that you push in with your finger. Mark the dowel again. The space between the two marks is how much seating depth you have to play with.

If you seat out to actually touch the lands (assuming your freebore isn't too long to let you do that), your powder charge will need to be about 10% lower because of the pressure increase that causes. Pressure gets higher either when a bullet is too deep or when it gets too near the lands, so finding best seating depth should be done with a low charge first, then adjust the charge up for best accuracy later.

Read the Berger letter posted by Tang, here. It is talking about finding best seating depths for Berger VLD's, but the basic principles apply to other bullets. That good seating depth "band" is shorter with shorter, non-VLD nose forms, but it doesn't typically have to be to the nearest 0.005" unless you are pretty near the throat.


Adjustment: Standard seating dies all have 14 threads per inch, so they move 0.071" per turn. 0.005" is about 1/14 of that or about 25°. Turn it in that much to get 0.005" of change.


In general, when adjusting the die body:

Angle of rotation in degrees = 360 × 14 × desired adjustment in inches

If you want to move a bullet in 20 thousandths, then:

360 × 14 × 0.020 = 100 degrees

Remember that 360 × 15 = 5040 to shorten the calculation to:

5040 × 0.020 = 100.8 exactly or about 100 degrees, or over a 1/4 turn but less than 1/3 turn.


If you want the fraction of a turn, then use:

1 / (Desired Change × 14) = Fraction Denominator of Turn.

Close enough is:

0.071 / Desired change = Fraction Denominator of Turn

Example:

0.071 / 0.020 = 3.55, so the turn fraction is 1/3.55. Between 1/3 and 1/4. Very close to 2/7, but between 1/3 and 1/4 is probably as close as your eye will estimate.


If your chamber's throat is very long, seating out to best accuracy may be too long for feeding from your magazine. Assuming you want magazine feed, set the round to the normal length, or with the seating depth so that the bearing surface is about 1 caliber into the neck, whichever is shorter. Work up the powder charge to best accuracy, then try moving the bullet in and out in steps of 0.020" to see if you find anything better, short of jamming up the magazine. If you do, re-tweak the powder charge when you get there. I don't think you'll find that the seating depth precision level is sensitive to 0.005" changes when you are that far from the throat, but you can try playing with it if you want to expend the ammunition.

Another factor with a long throat that affects performance is cartridge concentricity. If you spin the cartridge case, the bullet will usually wobble a little because the neck isn't quite straight or the bullet is tipped slightly. An old study in the NRA Handloading book showed a .30-06 getting up to an moa of group growth due to initial bullet tilt. Getting it below about 0.002" runout was the key. There are several commercial tools (Forster, Hornady, RCBS, Sinclair) for measuring this with a dial indicator. The Hornady tool includes a thumb screw for correcting it, though you can just drill a bullet size hole in your bench and learn to correct it by feel and re-measuring.

There are also special competition seating dies made by Redding and Forster with full-length sliding sleeves that tend to get bullets to seat straighter in the first place (other brands, too, but they don't seem to work as well). The Redding and Forster competition seating dies are available with micrometer depth adjustment thimbles which eliminate having to turn the die body. Choose your poison.
 
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