[Marshall Stanton]

Comment on the Tips article:

Fire-Forming Cases Made Foolproof!

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God Bless,

Marshall Stanton

 

[358sta]

Can I substitute Bullseye for Red Dot?

Where should I start for a load when FF 6mm Rem to AI and 257 Roberts to AI using Bullseye and Cream of Wheat or Cornmeal?

Thanks,.
Kevin

 

[GBertolet]

To make cases for my 35 Whelen AI, I was told by the gunsmith to use 10 gr of Bullseye, fill the case up to the bottom of the neck with cornmeal and put a ball of tissue to hold things in. It worked fine. I shot them into a stack of newspapers in my basement. The muzzle blast and cornmeal bullets don't tear up the newspapers that bad. The odor of burnt cornmeal really stinks. I was told that this is the best way to fireform cases. The powder charge may be debatable, smaller cases may need less powder, but the method works. The cases completely fill out the chamber, and are perfect coming out. You want to clean out your chamber after every few shots or your cases will have imprints of cornmeal grains on them.

 

[358sta]

GBertolet - Did your gunsmith say how the 10 gr. charge was determined? Fill the case full and take a percentage of that amount as a starting load or was it derived through trial and error? I figured Red Dot and Bullseye were fairly close in burn rate but wanted to confirm. What I'm trying to find out is if there is some guideline for the amount of powder to use when fireforming with corn meal. If not, then has someone fireformed 6mm Rem & 257 Roberts to AI using the corn meal/ cream of wheat method that can give me a place to start with the powder charge. I don't have enough Bullseye left in my inventory so I'll have to purchase more of it or I can purchase Red Dot instead. Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[Shawn Crea]

I've always 'wasted a bullet', Marshall! 338-06, 8mm-06, 6.5-06, and 416 Taylor; all with a low load for the cartridge. Worked out fine, but there is that lead going downrange with zero confidence on repeatable target hits.

 

[ribbonstone]

Works just fine.

Will usually try a few test cases, checking out one and upping the charge in the next if it didn't fill out. Once i got the balance right, will load up the remainder.

Main point of not using a bullet is not just about cost, it allows fire forming away from a range.

Will have to search, but in the past posted about a "fire form bucket" that has worked fine to cut noise to an acceptable level for basement or garage use.

 

[GBertolet]

I am not sure how my gunsmith came up with the 10gr of Bullseye charge weight with the cornmeal. He built a lot of custom rifles, many for wildcat cartridges, so it must be from experience. I just know the 10gr charge of Bullseye works well on the 30-06 to 35 Whelen AI fireform. I think Ribbonstone's advice is sound on reducing the charge for your smaller case, and incrementaly increase until you get the proper case fill out of the chamber.

 

[zb338]

I have reloaded a little for the 7MM IHMSA. I just load the cases up
with a lighter charge and go down to the range and shoot. It's a lot
more fun than messing around with corn meal.

Zeke

 

[358sta]

I am not sure how my gunsmith came up with the 10gr of Bullseye charge weight with the cornmeal. He built a lot of custom rifles, many for wildcat cartridges, so it must be from experience. I just know the 10gr charge of Bullseye works well on the 30-06 to 35 Whelen AI fireform. I think Ribbonstone's advice is sound on reducing the charge for your smaller case, and incrementaly increase until you get the proper case fill out of the chamber.

I agree with reducing the charge based on smaller case capacity and smaller caliber but where to start. 5 gr, 3 gr. ???

I found some info on Mike J's 6mm Rem AI webpage concerning using Cream of Wheat to FF brass. Here is an excerpt from his webpage.

When I first started shooting the 6mm Ackley Improved, I formed brass using 100 grain bullets purchased in bulk (cheap) at a gun show. After the forming & break in process, and going through about 400 rounds trying to develop some accurate loads, I decided to start over with some fresh brass. Barrel life expectancy became a concern, so an alternate method of forming brass sounded appealing. The "Cream of Wheat" method is basically using a light charge of a pistol powder, a pistol primer, a small wad of toilet paper, Cream of Wheat ™ or other similar inert filler, and a wax plug, but NO bullet. To determine how much powder to use (I used W231, others would also work), fill a new, unfired case completely full of your pistol powder. I did this step with a FIRED primer in the case. Dump the case full of powder onto your powder scale, and determine the weight. 10 percent of this full case weight of pistol powder is the charge you want to start forming with. Load a new, unfired case with a standard pistol primer, & the 10 percent charge of pistol powder. Drop in a small wad of toilet paper (about 1/4 of one sheet)into the case and tap it down. Next, fill the case to the neck & shoulder junction with your inert filler. Finally, plug the case with paraffin wax. Take the prepared case in one hand and hold the wax over it, forcing the case neck into the wax. The case is now ready to fire.

I followed his procedure and filled up a 6mm Rem and 257 Roberts case with Bullseye and weighed them. The 6mm Rem held 35.5 gr. - starting load 3.5 gr. and the 257 Roberts held 36 gr. - starting load 3.6 gr.

Anyone want to agree that these numbers are a good place to start?

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[digisol]

i would think 231 would substitute for Bullseye, the red dot is several speeds slower than 231, and I dare to say bullseye is one grade faster than 231, but there is little difference.

 

[pmn]

I (sort of) hate to dredge up an old thread but think this is the best one I've found after hours of researching the topic of using a fast powder to fire form cases.

I want to form 35 Whelen Ackley Improved cases from 30-06. I have a pound of Titewad that I bought when I couldn't get anything else to load light 38SPL with lead bullets. Now that I have been able to come up with more unique and some power pistol, I'd like to not 'waste' it on this operation. The Titewad is two slots faster than Red Dot on the Hodgdon burn rate chart. I was thinking starting with 75% of the 10% formula noted above might be reasonable. Would sure appreciate thoughts on this!

On a similar note... Some have mentioned that the cornmeal / cream of wheat route makes a mess in the barrel. I have only seen one or two references on firing loaded 30-06 rounds in the 35 Whelen. Sure the bullet will rattle down the bore but if the mess is lower that might be a good thing. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!

 

[nvshooter]

I have only seen one or two references on firing loaded 30-06 rounds in the 35 Whelen. Sure, the bullet will rattle down the bore but if the mess is lower, that might be a good thing. Any thoughts on this?

Just me, but I'd not fire a small bullet down a larger bore. Who knows what might happen? Call me a sissy, but that's where I stand...

 

[oldguide32]

Fire forming

I form my Whelen cases with about and "inch" of misc scrap powder saved from any and every scrap when bullet was pulled. Fill with cream of wheat, plug the neck with cold/sttiff chassis lube. works fairly well and stinks a lot.

Now Nevada, I spoke of this once before and have not heard a single comment about it. Back in 1944 I was assisting some Basque sheepherders in the high mtns. Went deer hunting with two brothers who tended camp for us. First morning one of them asked the the brother with a 30/30 for a hand full of shells althougb I knew that Wayne carried a 32 win Special. Being 12 years old, I had to ask questions. Wayne said they did it all the time, hunting in a timbered basin most shots were under 50 yards, often deer in their beds. anyone else experienced with this ???

 

[carpooler]

Cream of Wheat is cheaper, by far

I.M.O., Two things here. First, any quick shotgun powder will work. Second, you want the 1/4 case full of Cream of Wheat held back against the small powder charge, so it "blows forward" into the shoulder or neck. You are substituting kinetic energy for several thousand lbs. of pressure.

Rimmed cases seem to work fine. Rimless, not so fine. You still have to come up with something to head space the case on. False shoulders are O.K., and so is jamming a bullet into the lands, over a high power powder charge. My 44 x 356BB won't completely form out, but I finish the job with my expander button. Something to consider is that this also hardens the necks in a hurry.

Someone might lose half his barrel's life, by shooting fire forming bullets to make his cases out of. So I try the Cream of Wheat drill, whenever I can. I use a 5 gallon plastic bucket lined, and with top and bottom, using carpet scraps. A small hole lets me stick my muzzles into the bucket and through the top lining. Within reason, in my garage, I can fire form a couple of dozen cases, without attracting unwanted attention. Some modern cases are really tough to work with, in these ways, just as some are getting really hard to find, anywhere. I had to polish up on my case neck annealings, for some of my newbies.

 

[oldguide32]

Have used this method a lot since 1952 when my brother and I formed hundreds of cases for our .25Gibbs and 6.5 Gibbs. We dumped in the powder and wadded up a small amount of toilet paper and tamped it into the case to hold the powder back against the primer flash. then filled the case rest of the way about to neck. We were using Shell chasis lube as a case lube on our case lube pad (later switched to BryCream= a little dab will do ya) so we just pulled over the can of Shell chasis lube and filled the neck. Works best if a bit cold. then we simply shot it at the (concrete ) floor of the gun shop. By days end the floor was clean, bright and shiny from the muzzle blast and the shop stunk like ****. wear your ear muffs. As starving graduate students at the University, we would never have used real bullets to form several hundred cases.