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Discussion Starter #1
Hello from Scotland

Well it will not be long now and my "shiny" new .444p should arrive possibly 3 weeks, i feel like a 5 year old kid waiting for Christmas !

I would like to know a bit about the history of the guide gun ? When did they first appear ? Who first made them ? Calibres ?
I suppose they are the equivalent  of the old British double barrel, big bore rifles , fast handling allowing a quick follow-up shot and  chuck a big bullet too stop big nasty game in close cover.

I would appreciate a little historical back ground on this type of rifle, if anyone can offer some ?- Thanks
                 Regards ENGLANDER
 

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I think the guide gun was a concept created by a gunsmith based on a 45/70 Marlin rifle by simply lopping off a few inches of barrel. Others came along and added other neat, useful features like ghost ring sights, bigger lever loops etc. I think Jeff Coopers ''scout gun ''also heavily influenced the guide gun. About 2 years ago , Marlin management must of figured they could sell more 1895's if they did the same. I doubt if Marlin thought initially it would be this successful and they have recently came out with a 444 version called the ''outfitters gun''. There have been carbines for years built on all action types. There does seem to be a renewed interest in a lot of american shooters for these old style type of weapons and I think thats a good idea.  Hunting in the thick where the whitetails are, a 444 or a 45/70 really excells .
 

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As far as repeater carbines go, the Spencer was probably the 1st (sucessful example) and that was a 44 cal rimfire , I believe. They were used in the Civil war. The carbine concept was to make a long gun easier and handier to get out of a scabbard on Horseback. All a guide gun is , is a carbine, ''Guide Gun '' is just a great name to hang on the Marlin 1895 sawed off 3.5 inches. Short 45/70's would have gotten thier start with the 1873 trapdoor carbine used by the US Cavelry in the 1870's and 80's. Carbine concepts for matchlock's Im sure date back almost as long as matchlocks. Modern hunting rifles in this kind of configuration had a resurrgence in the 50's and 60's with shorter barrelled offerings from Savage, Remington(with there dog leg 600 series bolt guns) and Winchester. Rounds like the 350 Rem mag, 358 Winchester were introduced, but for whatever reason , they didnt sell all that well and were discontinued by most major gun makers. Along comes Jeff Cooper , big bore guru with strong ideas on what a short to medium range handy scout/hunting rifle should be. A 18 to 20 inch barreled short action bolt gun with a extended eye relief scope and integral bi pods that is easily removable and also has iron sights and is chambered for 308 win. mininum. With more prefered chamberings being 358 win. and the likes. The .376 Steyr chambering and thier Scout gun pretty much follows this concept to the letter. the 376 Steyr round is based on a wildcat someone concocted for this type weapon. Gunsmiths and Marlin soon followed with lever guns and this what we have today. That is usually how it goes , some gunsmith Modifies a round and or concieves a modified cartridge based on an existing design, if it is deemed popular and viable enough, the big gun makers jump on it and mass produce the gun.
 

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A side note , Englander, You say you are in Scotland, which is part of Great Britian , right, I thought the authorites took all your guns away. I thought the most fire power you guys can wield on the British Isles was a mean spring piston air rifle or a compound bow ?
 

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The Outfitter was first offered in '99.  I put in my order just about 3 years ago to this date and received it 6 months later.  At the time, they were more readily available in states like AZ than my home state of Kalifornicate (CA) and I almost canceled my order and drove to Phoenix to purchase one for about 100 bucks less.

I believe the Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 was cataloged one year earlier.

44
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hello from Scotland

Thanks whckmstr for the info, yep Scotland is is part of great Britain. Semi-auto centre fire rifles are illegal here as are hand-guns, bow hunting is also illegal, we have to have steel guns safes which the police inspect (a good thing) we have a very strict licencing system ,photograph on licence, must prove you are a regular member at a range or to get soft point ammo have writtern permission from a farmer or landowner. Must have two referrees to vouch your not a NUTTER !
A lot of guys simply gave up due to all the hassle, not me !
We have excellant Deer stalking, six species of Deer, .22 centre fires are probably most common for lamping fox at night.
The police have just renewed my licence which lasts for 5 years.
I hope to flattern my first British Deer with my .444 before 2002 is out- will keep you posted !

Regards ENGLANDER
 

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Spencer cartridge

whckmstr said:
As far as repeater carbines go, the Spencer was probably the 1st (sucessful example) and that was a 44 cal rimfire , I believe. They were used in the Civil war. The carbine concept was to make a long gun easier and handier to get out of a scabbard on Horseback. All a guide gun is , is a carbine, ''Guide Gun '' is just a great name to hang on the Marlin 1895 sawed off 3.5 inches. Short 45/70's would have gotten thier start with the 1873 trapdoor carbine used by the US Cavelry in the 1870's and 80's. Carbine concepts for matchlock's Im sure date back almost as long as matchlocks. Modern hunting rifles in this kind of configuration had a resurrgence in the 50's and 60's with shorter barrelled offerings from Savage, Remington(with there dog leg 600 series bolt guns) and Winchester. Rounds like the 350 Rem mag, 358 Winchester were introduced, but for whatever reason , they didnt sell all that well and were discontinued by most major gun makers. Along comes Jeff Cooper , big bore guru with strong ideas on what a short to medium range handy scout/hunting rifle should be. A 18 to 20 inch barreled short action bolt gun with a extended eye relief scope and integral bi pods that is easily removable and also has iron sights and is chambered for 308 win. mininum. With more prefered chamberings being 358 win. and the likes. The .376 Steyr chambering and thier Scout gun pretty much follows this concept to the letter. the 376 Steyr round is based on a wildcat someone concocted for this type weapon. Gunsmiths and Marlin soon followed with lever guns and this what we have today. That is usually how it goes , some gunsmith Modifies a round and or concieves a modified cartridge based on an existing design, if it is deemed popular and viable enough, the big gun makers jump on it and mass produce the gun.
Beggin your pardon,sir;
the Spencer was the first to be issued, but it was a .52 caliber rimfire.
It's main Competitior the henry, was a .44 rimfire.

Mike
 
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