Well I don't share the same revere you have for the animals listed. I think as long as the marksman is worth his salt, the 30-06 is rated for everything up to and including some small species of whale.

That's actually one of the better written things I've read lately.

Insulting is when a company says things like: No they don't have a discontinued product line, until a distributor spills the beans. Then we're told no don't worry about that, is not like we're chasing contracts before you, even though ball bullets is about all that isn't cut. Hey we're here for you!

Remember those HPBT bullets that we had to discontinue long long ago because they had better numbers than the Tipped bullets we wanted to sell you, because they were cheaper to make? Well they are back, until we can figure out a way to make you think the cheaper to mfg bullets are better. So much better that you'll pay another 30% for... Maybe we'll actually redesign them, but if we toss out some nonsense about tip color you'll be excited. We know none of you actually read anything Vaughn did on tips and how they really don't matter much, because we've convinced you they do. If we can simultaneously play to any "plastic tip" fear, while giving you a pretty new color and "fix" to this non-problem; you'll shut-up and pay us what we want.
After all, we have some exciting new testing equipment that tells us we didn't know what we were doing! You know the same equipment that that "other" company has been using for years. The same old equipment Sierra used on loan to make the 175 SMK, well we have it now too, so you should stand in awe and kiss the rings that we finally decided to play catch-up, disguised in a cloud of horse shyte.

That's insulting, or at what irks me.

 

I have to agree the opening paragraphs are over the top. I have hunted with both the 30-06 and the 308Win and have to say in the two rifles (Parker Hales circa 1980) I never ever noticed the difference in handling or performance so sold the 30-06 as I had two rifles doing the very same job. Like having two wives when one is more than adequate

 

Sus said it succinctly - I also have never ever seen any difference in similar shots on big game netween the two - in fact I have often seen better penetration by the .308W with 180gr bullets due to the slightly slower impact velocity and lesser diameter expansion.

and I exactly know the difficulty of the decision of having to sell (which!?) one of the .308W or the 30-06. If I knew I was going to still hunt eland I'll keep the -06 so I can use 220gr - as the calibre is also so nice on the small stuff like impala and bushbuck too with the heaviest bullets, as well as on the distant stuff with 165/168gr. If eland is not in the equation the .308W is perfect.

" Well I don't share the same revere you have for the animals listed. I think as long as the marksman is worth his salt, the 30-06 is rated for everything up to and including some small species of whale. "

Well.. if those three maybe comply and stand sideways and it moves the front leg foward to expose the heart - like I assassinated a Cape buffelo with the -06 and a 220gr Sako Hammerhead - it is OK. Side brain shot on an elephant at 30 yards is easy if he had not taken an interest in you yet. As said before, thousands of elephant were culled with 147 gr FMJ from the FN FAL, taking out whole family groups of 20 at a time by two shooters on the ground and a helicopter herding back runaways.

I suppose if one knows where the brain is in a baby whale... ...and you rowed up to it, and had already lured mom away in some way

 

On the other hand, I find the gun writers enthusiasm for the 06 and .308 quite refreshing. Instead of tales of how these rounds run out of steam at long range, and how deadly it would be for u to use them on dangerous game, it tells it the way it is. Sick of writers bad mouthing a proven product to sell a "NEW AND IMPROVED" one. I'd hunt anything with either of them. There are rounds that will shoot flatter and farther, if you feel the need to shoot animals further away than they should be. There are bigger rounds if you feel you need the extra power, but these 2 do 98% of what is really needed and they do it quite well.

 

This article is from the Cheaper Than Dirt web site. I always consider the source and the intended audience when I evaluate articles such as this. For me, it's hardly worth commenting on. I doubt it had much general appeal in the larger shooting community.

 

Yep - that website published the author - and if the missive did have general appeal I would have been quite disappointed. At least the last sentence was a generally correct statement. The original post is an initial attempt to highlight these illogical claims regularly made by gunwriters, salesmen behind gun counters and pub talkers. Just so that new entrants into the gun world at least see a balanced view.

I have read equally silly sentiments in the major gun-magazine spectrum over many years - and that included superlatives and claimed abilities from now revered authors which went somewhat beyond field facts - particularly regarding some new calibre/bullet weight combinations.

 

MM, I sometimes think these people write something just to elicit a response knowing what they've written is heavily canted towards the highest level of BS. I don't pay much attention to it, having known and knowing several writers who simply don't have a lot of knowledge but do have a good word processor. What bothers me is thinking that someone new to the shooting sports or hunting might read this and believe most or some of it. The internet is a great resource...both for facts and fantasy. Unfortunately it's hard to sort out at times.
Regarding 30-06 vs 308: My two cents worth on the subject are this. The .308 does just about everything the 30-06 does. If I were thinking of going to the larger (longer) 30-06 because it can handle a heavier bullet I'd keep going and simply get a .35 Whelen. In my opinion, that's an improvement if you're looking for something a bit large but don't need an a really heavy caliber for the biggest of big game. I'd simply get one of each.

 

I am not sure about dignifying a guy published on a marketing website by calling him a gun-writer.

Most of the ones who actually do write for gun-related publications are on the dubious side as far as I am concerned, not too far removed from romance novel 'writers' who file off the serial numbers on a half-dozen or so formula stories, change the names and locations around a bit - and publish the work as 'new'.

I just wish that I had a dollar for every "Is the 30-06 obsolete?" or "The 30-06, still the best!" article that have appeared in the various gun magazines over the years.

I quit even picking up and browsing through gun magazines some years ago, including the American Rifleman, because I got tired of reading variations on the same dozen or two articles over and over again. It has gotten to where the gun rags are not so far removed from Cheaper Than Dirt, it's all about the advertisers.

These days I mainly read "Shooting Industry" to stay current, and books by O'Connor, Kieth, Whelen, Baker, Chapstick, Bell etc. for enjoyment.

And the gun-related forums like this one, of course.

308/30-06: The 308 works in short actions... The 30-06 is more powerful. That means that they are not the same, except perhaps where somebody's imagination has overpowered their grasp of basic physics. If I had to choose between the two (which I don't) then I would choose the 30-06. - The 30-06 can do anything that the 308 does, and more. The 308 can do some but not all of what the 30-06 can do. The 30-06 is obviously the more versatile of the two, besides being more powerful.

My personal favorite among 30 caliber cartridges is the 300 WSM, which responds much better to reduced loads than the .300 Winchester mag can, and so is the most versatile 30 caliber cartridge currently available. It can launch a 30 caliber bullet at just about any velocity level required for that bullet or for a particular hunting application. There are larger, more powerful 30 caliber cartridges, but none that you can tone down so readily to just about any desired level. The short magnum case is pretty good, as far as recent innovations go.

Are there any current gun writers that I ought to know about? - Anybody good?

 

The reason for the .308 was for the M14. In rifles of equal weights and lengths the 30-06 is the choice. If you want to shoot 220grn bullets the 06 is the choice. If you want 30-06 ballistics in a Shorter action, shorter barreled , lighter weight rifle and you are happy that 150.165, and 180grn bullets at slightly less muzzle velocity is all you need, then the .308 is the choice.

 

I think "Cheaper than Dirt" is striving to be the new Herter's.... ....

I should have loaned them my 9 pound .458. Then they would know what it felt like when the city bus hit them, instead of the other way around

 

Heck yes, let us not enter and get bogged down into an encircling analysis paralysis between the two calibres. There is no difference in one shot killing power between the 30-06 / .308W /.303 Brit / 7x57 / 7x64 Brenneke on all big game in the elk weight category and the ten similar weight game animals in Southern Africa - the very reason why the .308W is by far the most popular here, followed some way behind by the 30-06, 7x57 and 7x64Brenneke, and the .303 Brit.

 

Question for MusgraveMan: If I were to hunt Eland with a 308 as opposed to a 30-06, how much of a disadvantage would I be subject to? Should I use a 200 plus grain bullet or stick to the 180? Curious, as I have been looking at the reloading manuals. Sure there are some differences, but the differences do not look like a lot to me.

 

Back to this question:



Have a look at these photo's (not my own, but my bullet placement indication). By the way - that anatomy showed in photo#6 is the same for all big game including elk, and shows the reason why the heavier bullet in any calibre needs to be used. Find the bullet placement for photo #4. The little entrance hole on the dead trophy can be seen low in the wet patch made by the water that was used to wash the blood off.

 

Calico, I lost one eland (the only animal ever in my life) due to a 150gr bullet from the .308W not getting to the heart via the low shoulder. It is a very bulky animal and invariably these things either face you head on or at an angle and you have to shoot it through the heart (and thus through the shoulder - as they take an extraordinary time to die from a lung shot and you may not find it in dense bush.

You typically have less than ten seconds to make your shot. If it is ninety degrees side-on it is the most risky shot for a 180gr bullet as it then has to traverse a lot of muscle and bone to get to the upper chambers and nerves of the heart and there I prefer the 220gr from the -06. Slightly rear side-on the 180 from either calibre is good enough as is a slightly angled frontal shot so that you can send the bullet next to the shoulder into the heart. Eland is where the 7x57 with a 175gr bullet impacting at 2,400 ft/sec. shows its mettle - having better penetration than a 180gr from a .308w or 30-06.

I have not used a Barnes 180gr in the .308W - but it may steal some powder capacity. I have also not used 200gr in the .308W yet as I only use 180gr bullets in it. I am sure it will duplicate the 7x57s penetration with 175gr bullets of the same type. I do not think you will be experimenting when you use a 200gr bullet from the .308W on eland - I would do that. There are times of course when immediate circumstances dictate that no matter the calibre, one passes up a shot if the result is a guess and not a certainty.

MOST problems with eland (also gemsbok and wildebeest no matter the calibre) is a shot too high. It must enter very low, just above the breast bone to cut the heart.

When I go after eland specifically I carry the -06 and 220gr PMP ProAmm ammunition. Everything else from kudu down to deer size animals (impala, blesbok bushbuck) I use the .308W and 180gr bullets because we have come a long way.

 

I quit being influenced by the 'gun writers' a long time ago. Anytime I read an article by ANY of them, I compare it with my 46 plus years of handling, training and using firearms, then I go with what I know works!

 

Eland sound to me like nilgai on steroids. Same shot required lower third and break the leg on the way through, rarely if ever an exit hole. If I was to go for either, I'm afraid I would be carrying a 375H&H. The nilgai I shot with a 375H&H at the King Ranch, stood perfectly at about 70yrds. The bullet broke the leg and pulverised the heart and some of the lung but it still whirled around as if not hit and ran well over a 100yrds before expiring. just over 900lbs gutted on the hook. If you need to drive in a six inch nail you don't take a toffee hammer.

 

Gun writers Nonsense


I also have shot Nilgai on the King Ranch. My 39+" bull would have been way up there in the books in 1989. A strong, hefty animal was he. I've taken three, all with my 280 AI with hand loads using Nosler 160gr Partition bullets at 2900 fps. From 50 yards to 120 yards, all performed well and only one required a second shot. None ran off although we weren't chasing them in jeeps as the ranch is prone to do. I hunted on foot after spotting them. None exited, but sat just below the skin on the opposite side.

These days, associates of mine claim the ranch drives them as close as possible, certainly exciting the animal. It's no wonder they run before or after shooting - the adrenalin must be flowing. They also claim they ask them to use ranch rifles, most all 30 magnums. A well-placed shot with a well-constructed bullet at close to 3000 fps is all that's needed - just like in any other hunting. Nilgai are tough, but a good load & rifle in the hands of someone comfortable with it are more than adequate.

 

Thank you for that explanation, MusgraveMan. Due to old injuries my experiences have been confined to local deer and hog hunting and limited at that. At least I can learn things from one who has actually had the experiences I cannot have.

I was very surprised to learn that the 308 was such a popular round in Africa. I have apparently underestimated the 308 round over the years. Anyway, I bought one in the form of the Ruger Scout Rifle with the 18 inch barrel a couple of months back. Using conventional scope mounts I have fallen in love with the rifle and am working on getting to know the caliber. Thanks again.

Sus, I if I ever get to hunt anything as large as the Nilgai or Eland I will use my M77 in 35 Whelen. A full power Whelen load is about all I am up to any more. I have even had to back down my 45-70 loads to trapdoor levels. But, i am not giving up my Whelen.

 

Nothing shot with the 30-06 would be able to tell if it was shot with a .308. There is about 100fps difference between the 2. Same as the .300 mags. The extra velocity flattens the bullet drop that only matters at extreme ranges. A bullet traveling at 2820, 2900, or 3100 FPS. will perform the same penetrating game. Don't let anybody tell you anything different.

 

Velocity also alters the bullets behavior when it strikes the game animal. This is why bullets really should be labeled with the velocity range at which they best perform.

When you hear about bullets passing through without expanding, or expanding too quickly and blowing big chunks out of the animal, ruining a lot of meat, a lot of times what you are really hearing is that the wrong bullet was chosen for the velocity - or that the wrong load for the particular game animal was used. Then there are the cases where the animal was shot in the wrong spot, or at the wrong angle.

This is why you hear horror stories about ruined meat from one 7mm Rem mag user for example, while another 7mm Rem mag user has gives glowing reports about how good a job it did for him.

If you think that velocity does not affect bullet performance, then you are living in foo-foo land. It makes an essential difference that knowledgeable shooters make it a point to be aware of.

Don't let anyone tell you different.

 

In all reality when you compare the 30-06 to a 22LR it is a monster but when you compare it to the 408 Chey Tac which pushes a 419gr bullet at 2900 fps and has 7823 ft lbs at muzzle and is still at 2015 fps and 3776 ft lbs at 1000 yards then the 408 becomes the monster and the 30-06 the mouse. But who really cares as the 30-06 will do any job you are capable of doing.

 

Charles wrote amongst other true facts: This is why bullets really should be labeled with the velocity range at which they best perform. (IF one can trust the wisdom of the bullet / ammunition maker - and I have a firm opinion about that...).

But Charles is exactly correct - I have just written an article accepted by a local hunting magazine about how we criticise calibres - like I myself often unfairly do with the .300WM and 7mm RM due to their really bad history in Africa for wounding. The fact is that in most instances either the wrong bullet design or bullet weight was used for the task at hand.

We prefer shots into the heart-lung area which is low, inbetween the two shoulder bones, and not into the lungs behind the shoulder, and thus to the rear of the heart. Unless a heavy enough Barnes or best quality cup and core bullet is used at impact velocities between 2400-2600 ft/sec. there invariably is a problem on the impact shoulder with whatever calibre . Light and fast does not work well.

Impacting too high on the scapula at 2,700 ft/second the petals on a Barnes TSX 140gr 7mm flatten down onto the bullet shank and it acts as a FMJ or monolithic solid and simply whips right trough. When the wound channel is examined should the animal be found the shooter in good faith believes that there was NO expansion when in fact there was proper, immediate expansion but also immediate virtual welding of the petals onto the shank. A heavier and thus slower but carrying more momentum bullet will work properly.

Whether Barnes or strong cup and core, the heavier bullets will always serve the hunter better than the lighter ones - which means 165-180gr in the non-magnum .30 calibres, and 200-220gr in the magnums. For the non magnum 7mms 160 -175 gr seem to get the job done on big game, and not lighter than 175gr on the .280Rem / 7x64 Brenneke / 7mm Rem Mag.

The bullet drop of the heavier bullets is so small it can be ignored at hunting ranges should you sight for a maximum point blank range of about 240 yards (1.5"-2" high or low of sightline) - it is way less than the average hunter error in any case.

At 80 yards where the majority of shots are on kudu and wildebeest (same will happen with elk) even a 150gr Nosler Partition from a .300 WM or a 140gr from a 7mm RM sometimes causes much external damage and the enclosed part of the partition often gets deflected away from the heart.

Bullet weight and construction unsuitable to the mass of muscle and bone to be penetrated to get to the heart and beyond relative to impact velocity is the culprit, and not the calibre designation the hunter shoots with. Increase the bullet weight which brings the impact velocity down and it will increase the momentum value and will result in getting the job done on that heavy elk or even eland shoulder we are talking about here.

 

^ generally agree.

There are far more animals wounded and lost due to bad bullet choices, than are lost due to bad cartridge choices.

 

I would also through in bad point of impact also or poor skill level.

 

Cartridge of the Week, The 30-06 Springfield, 30-06 Spr. ,30-06 Spfld., 7.62x63mm, .30 Government

The quantitative 'information' is as off-base as the qualitative exaggerations. The 300 Win Mag is listed as launching a 150 grain bullet 90 fps faster than the 300 Weatherby. Uh, negative on that. And I sure wish my 30-30 Marlin was capable of getting the same 150 grains over 2,700 fps. Something tells me the old girl would protest mightily if so abused.

 

Velocity definitely kills animals. The fly in the ointment here is that if velocity is the main goal, absent of proper bullet selection for the high velocity, a lot of those killed animals won't be recovered.

I have nothing against 'magnums', and one of my favorites is the 338 WM, but with 225 and 250 gr bullets, it really is not a magnum. It was a marketing tag to boost sales, and it has a 'magnum' belt (which was not needed). Compare similar sectional densities between the bullets weights available in 30-06 to the 338 WM and you'll see that velocities are similar, but the 30-06 doesn't have the popular 'magnum' title attached to it. It's (30-06) still one of the best.

 

I have nothing against 'magnums', and one of my favorites is the 338 WM, but with 225 and 250 gr bullets, it really is not a magnum. It was a marketing tag to boost sales, and it has a 'magnum' belt (which was not needed). Compare similar sectional densities between the bullets weights available in 30-06 to the 338 WM and you'll see that velocities are similar, but the 30-06 doesn't have the popular 'magnum' title attached to it. It's (30-06) still one of the best.

I like the 338, too...as you say, it's essentially a 'super-sized' 30-06, shooting bullets of similar sectional density at similar velocity. Simply makes a bigger hole, which is a good idea as the 'target' size increases.

 

i'm glad that i put the old '06 away in the safe. i could have been killed from the monster. its a good thing that i shot many deer before someone told me!!!

these days i use cast boolits for deer and black bear. with my 1898 springfield armory in 30-40 krag that uses a 165gr ranch dog over a 25.5gr of h4198 it "barely" puts down a deer. i mean, the 165gr rd going about 1800fps out of the muzzle "barely" hitting a deer's onside shoulder, going thru both lungs and the heart and then going "barely" out of the offside rib and then it continues "barely" to the dirt/tree. thankfully i shot the deer at 93 yards(drt) and i didn't have to track it.

but thankfully i put the "monster" back in the safe!!! the elephants should be truly happy too!!!

 

Here is another one I tead today regarding products at the SHOT Show

The report is about the unique products designed for storing firearms safely and unobtrusively by a noted manufacturer - apparently with mirrors on the outside, which prompted this little jewel of Yuckspeak by the eager gunwriter:"... in order to seamlessly integrate your firearms into your home".

Not sure if smoke is used too, or only mirrors.

 

MusgraveMan: I also came to the conclusion the 180 was best for the 308. What 308 bullet are you using?

 

Ironhead, in South Africa it is the locally manufactured, flat based PMP ProAmm and in the US the Hornady flat-based Interlock.