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My Hodgdon/IMR/Win powder pamphlet lists identical data (charge, velocity, pressure) for H414 and Win 760 in various calibers. This is not so on my older Hornady (4th edition) load manual. They are listed at #86 and #87 on the relative burn rate chart. Is there a difference at all since the companies have merged? It appears not on the pamphlet - the data is dead nuts identical. Did there used to be a difference as is evident in my Hornady data?
 

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Hodgdon has said in the past that they are the same powder.
Don't forget that lots can differ- and quite a bit. Different lots, and the different firearms that the various manual publishers use, different bullets, and different ways of measuring pressure, can all account for the differences you see in charge weights.
 

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I've noticed the same thing in the 4th edition Hornady. Some powders that are supposed to be identical except for packaging show extreme variations in the manual. For example 32S&W long using HP-38 and Win 231 shows a .6 difference in powders on a 2.5 grain charge. Noticed the same thing between H-110 and Win 296. Also noted the starting charges on those two powders are considerably lower than Hodgdon recommends.

Guess the way I approach it is look at loads from several sources and watch carefully for pressure signs as I work up. If you have data listing velocity and have a cronograph your loads should be in the ball park if the numbers are close.
 

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The latest info I have seen is that present lots of H414 and WW 760 are the same powder in different cans.
Hodgdon has said in the past that they are the same powder.
Don't forget that lots can differ- and quite a bit. Different lots, and the different firearms that the various manual publishers use, different bullets, and different ways of measuring pressure, can all account for the differences you see in charge weights.

Big user of 414 [Hodgdon] in the old '06.

I've read the same as these guys.
Good powder, put it under a 155-170 grain bullet and it shines!!!!
 

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That's the fallacy of most so-called burn rate charts: how do you number identical twins?

Proper charts are arranged like a spreadsheet, with companies in columns. That way, two identical powders can share the same line. A REALLY proper chart would have each line separated by the same interval of burn rate, so you could see exactly how MUCH slower or faster a powder above or below is. Unfortunately, there is no one such scale because every powder company tests differently. They rank their own powders, but there is no agreed-to scale of measurement (like degrees of temperature, for example).
 

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That's the fallacy of most so-called burn rate charts: how do you number identical twins?

Proper charts are arranged like a spreadsheet, with companies in columns. That way, two identical powders can share the same line. A REALLY proper chart would have each line separated by the same interval of burn rate, so you could see exactly how MUCH slower or faster a powder above or below is. Unfortunately, there is no one such scale because every powder company tests differently. They rank their own powders, but there is no agreed-to scale of measurement (like degrees of temperature, for example).
And then add another dimension to see if they change relative order at different pressures..... :D
 

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I was told by Hogdon at the 06 Shot Show in Vegas that they kept each batch with-in a + or - 3% burn range. Which means that if you got a batch of powder that was 3% on the fast side and then the next batch was on the 3% slow side that is a 6% swing in burn rate for the same powder
 

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Another double-branded powder is St. Mark's WC296, which is branded in canister grade as Winchester 296 and Hodgdon H110. In QuickLOAD's database the burning rate factors (Ba) are listed as 0.730 1/s and 0.800 1/s, respectively. Ba is the number of seconds it took for the standard size sample to burn at the standard caloric bomb pressure, that result divided into one so the number gets bigger as burning rate gets faster. It's almost 10% difference and pressure is directly related to it for a given charge weight. QuickLOAD's Hodgdon powders are all measured in Hartmut's calorimetry lab, so that is clearly one place they didn't make their own specification.
 

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Burn rate charts have rather little to do with the reality of handloading. The published rate orders are usually determined by bomb-tests, not from firing bullets down a barrel. And that wouldn't give accurate rankings either....

Experienced reloaders know that powders change burning rates at different pressures, and in different cartridges - sometimes with just a bullet change in the same cartridge. All this fixation on "burning rates" is balderdash and just confuses the less-informed reloader. Far better to go to actual loading data for your particular application rather than to agonize over where powder IRA-1234 fits on some arbitrary "burn rate" chart.


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Burn rate charts have rather little to do with the reality of handloading. The published rate orders are usually determined by bomb-tests, not from firing bullets down a barrel. And that wouldn't give accurate rankings either....

Experienced reloaders know that powders change burning rates at different pressures, and in different cartridges - sometimes with just a bullet change in the same cartridge. All this fixation on "burning rates" is balderdash and just confuses the less-informed reloader. Far better to go to actual loading data for your particular application rather than to agonize over where powder IRA-1234 fits on some arbitrary "burn rate" chart.


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What if you're loading for a wildcat and there is no book data available? What if it's a fairly new powder and/or the books you have don't include the powder and bullet combination you're interested in? What if you're an inveterate tinkerer and just want to satisfy your curiosity about a load recipe that doesn't exist in any book?

I agree that new reloaders should stick to published data, but after doing this for 20 some years, loading for dozens of different rifle, pistol and shotgun cartridges and shells, I hardly consider burn rate charts to be arbitrary. This thread is about redundancy, or duplicity, in the naming of various powders, which can be very important information for the reloader. If you walk into a store and they don't have H-Whatever, but you know that W-123 is the same powder in a different can, then you don't walk away empty-handed.

Given that all burn rate charts I've seen are only a relative ranking, I do understand your point, but they still offer relevant and meaningful points of reference, especially when you're working up loads for a new rifle, or an obscure case. As long you don't base any decision ENTIRELY on a burn rate chart, and take the time to understand more than just what "number" a given powder has in the list, they are useful and valuable.

A perfect example of when experience and a burn chart can be of some help, is when a new bullet like the FTX comes out and you really want to try it in an old classic, like the 44/40. Unless you buy new reloading books every six months, you have to kind of figure out for yourself how to safely use it. If you don't put a lot of faith in "internet loads", or you don't want to wait until someone DOES publish book data, (whether in print or on their website) you have to use your prior experience, and any information that is available, to begin working up safe, effective loading data. Many reloaders make use of burn charts in those types of situations, and rightfully so.
 
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