[varminter]

I know that manuals say not to do this because the same burn rate powders from different companies can actually burn at different speeds. I know this is not recommended, But There are two places to buy powder where I am and neither have the H4198 that my gun so craves. But one has IMR4198. I just wonder if I could use this and not go through the entire trouble of working up a new load.

I use 22grains of H4198 the listed max in my speer manual. I just wonder if I could start at like 21 grains and work up from there. If you think this is a retarded post it may very well be but I wonder these things and can think of no better place to ask these question than here.

thanks in advance!

 

[jodum]

Both of the 4198's are very close but I have found the H4198 to be slightly slower than the IMR version. I use the same volumn of each to load my 55 gr 223 Rem. The 223 uses a relatively small charge so I pretty much get the same result. In my 444 Marlin and 45-70 I use different amounts of each for the same bullet. Backing off a grain or so as you said will be a good starting point to find how each works in your load. Good shootin.

 

[Chief RID]

I do not think these powders are identical. There is data for each listed in many manuals and they are different starting and max loads for each with the same bullet.

 

[broom_jm]

They are very close in burn rate, but I found out the old-fashioned way that they certainly aren't the same. I have a 7-30 Waters that showed a distinct preference for the IMR flavor of 4198, although I can't claim that one gun/one shooter is all that definitive.

 

[TMan]

I can't claim that one gun/one shooter is all that definitive.

FWIW, I've been using H/IMR 4198, 4895, 4350, 4831's, in my own and friends/family firearms for almost 45 years. In most cases, the "H" variant will be slower, and has been, and by quite a lot.

On average, I don't think you'll blow a gun up, but there are a couple changes that could be a problem. At the same time, I also purchased a couple of them in the larger drums. It takes a while to get through 8lbs of 4831, etc. even with several rifles chewing on it. Hodgdon seems to change a bit from drum to drum, and IMR has changed from time to time also.

I don't think you'd see an accuracy difference between brands with a peep sighted .444, but your .17 fireball with a varmit barrel might.

 

[Rocky Raab]

The best way think think of ANY powder pairs with the same number is that they have identical USES, but not with identical charges. Some grouping of the other components may work out to use nearly identical charge weights, but different components - even in the same cartridge - might not.

 

[Big Bore]

I know that manuals say not to do this because the same burn rate powders from different companies can actually burn at different speeds. I know this is not recommended, But There are two places to buy powder where I am and neither have the H4198 that my gun so craves. But one has IMR4198. I just wonder if I could use this and not go through the entire trouble of working up a new load.

I use 22grains of H4198 the listed max in my speer manual. I just wonder if I could start at like 21 grains and work up from there. If you think this is a retarded post it may very well be but I wonder these things and can think of no better place to ask these question than here.

thanks in advance!

Time for you to go back to Reloading 101. If you want to be a safe and prudent reloader you start over from the start load when ever you change a component. You change primers, start over, you change powders-which is what you are doing-you start over, you change bullets, you should start over.
There is a huge difference in the burn of Federal primers over CCI primers, magnum verses standard, X bullet over lead core bullet, and one powder over another even if they are side by side on the burn rate chart. Even if you change lots of the same powder you should be starting over from the start load or at least reduce your load and make sure things have not changed. If you think that can of Hercules 2400 powder from 20 years ago is the same as the Alliant 2400 powder you bought yesterday, you are in for a rude wake up call. Load long enough and you will find that you can get into serious trouble very quickly by not following safe and prudent reloading practices. I know it is a PITA to have to start over again, but 42 years of reloading has taught me one thing, don't cut corners on loading or it will bite you in the behind and that bite can be quite hard. People like to say that all those warnings in the manuals are there to cover their collective rear ends and are built in lawyers. Those people are foolish and if you hear anyone tell you that the warnings in the manuals can be ignored, find another tutor and you might now want to share range time with them again. Eventually they will blow something and you don't want to be there when it happens.

 

[Rocky Raab]

In these days of high-priced components, we may wish to avoid the need for dropping all the way back to Start loads just because we open a new can of our favorite powder or are forced to change primer brands due to non-availability.

Here's my answer, called "The 95% Solution." As always, view my webpages with Firefox, not Internet Exploder. http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/95S.htm

 

[pmeisel]

I recommend Rocky's solution, I have been using this practice for awhile.

I don't remember when I first read this article, but besides Rocky's write-up, a couple other writers have recommended "working loads" -- something backed off enough from maximum that minor variations won't cause a safety issue.

In fact, I hardly ever load to full maximum anymore, and haven't opened up my chronograph in several years. All I need to know is if the load is powerful enough to kill what I am shooting at (and paper targets kill easy!).

 

[ranger335v]

"..manuals say not to do this because the same burn rate powders from different companies can actually burn at different speeds. I know this is not recommended,"

So you want someone to tell you to ignore your manuals? Not me man, what if it turns out those reloading professionals actually know more about powder than I do?

 

[unclenick]

The two 4198's are not as close as the two 4227's were (which is why H4227 has been dropped as redundant) but they are closer than any of the other H/IMR alike numbers, AFAIK. You cannot safely use velocity matching to change from H4350 to IMR 4350, because of their burn rate difference. But if you have a consistent chronograph, with the two 4198's this practice appears to be safe (at least, so far; see source differences below). Use a good size sample to find a real average from one lot or brand just before you run out, then knock that load down 5%, per Rocky's recommendation, and work it back up to a matching average velocity. In that instance, I think you'll find pressure and barrel times will be essentially the same.

I had two lots of these powders at one point that were grain for grain interchangeable, but that was many years ago and before the ADI Extreme powders came to Hodgdon. H4198 is ADI's AR 2207 while the IMR 4198 MSDS shows that it can be ADI AR2215, a powder not sold by ADI to reloaders under that name (I don't see it on their web site, anyway).

I asked a Hodgdon tech for clarification on this, and apparently the IMR 4198 is normally made in Canada, as it was in the past, while the ADI number is an alternate source. I didn't think to ask if that would be packaged in Canada and come in labeled as made in Canada or labeled as made in Australia. I would hope for the latter distinction. At any rate, that AR 2215 does not appear on ADI's list tells me it is probably made close to the Canadian formulation and is not an "Extreme" powder formulation. Nonetheless, two plants are not going to make a truly identical product, so watch out for some irregularity to show up somewhere down the line. Always make that 5% drop and work up even when you change lots.

 

[varminter]

thank you much guys. Hope you have a marry christmas!

 

[gomerdog]

thank you much guys. Hope you have a marry christmas!

I have heard that it's bad luck for this to happen on Christmas. I married my sweetie on December 22 and that's as close as I would recommend. It's been a challenge at times.