Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I here all the nay sayers on the boards about using handloads in CCW/Home defense situations. Why not? If thats what you have in the gun at the time why should it be an issue. If your in a situation where your life is on the line or your family's who care's how you take out the threat. What are you going to do say hold on a minute I've got to switch to factory!! I liken this to telling a murder hold on a minute I can't defend myself with the wifes best cultery let me get the cheap stuff out of the dishwasher!  Believe me I'm not going to woory if the situation presents it self. In Idaho a burgler in your house presents a clear threat to Family or my safety gets what ever  is nessesary to remove that threat! Believe me I'll go to my grave fighting  rather than let some court/lawyer tell me other wise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
gunnut45,
Ifin it looks like me or my family, what ever hapens to be under the firing pin is what they get. I like the old addage of the three "s" (shoot,shovel, shut-up). I know every bleeding heart lawer would have a field day with it. Where I live theres a lot of old gold mines with DEEP air shafts, 2, 10lb bags of lime and a few shovels of dirt would also cure the problem. Like I told a deputy once, "Ill be tried by 12 of my peers not carried by 6 of my friends. Ifin the bad guys know your armed, your one of the last people they want to fool with.

Reguards

Gun Runner
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Two factors are usually cited for not using handloads for self defense, but I believe both to be faulty.
       1) The excessive force issue. The arguement is that either a prosecutor or a tort lawyer could build the case that you created special ammo with an excessive capacity to injure or kill, and wished to do harm rather than simply defend yourself. This arguement is faulty since this same charge has been made against some of the personal defense factory ammo, and your because reloaded ammo could provide your counsel the arguement that you rather than being prepared for a shootout were forced to improvise using your sporting ammo to defend. The key here is how state of mind is presented.
       2) The reliability issue. Some argue that handloads are less reliable than factory ammo. I have never had a handload fail to fire, but have had cheap factory ammo do so. The simple fact here is that some people produce crap handloads and some factories produce crap factory loads. Do not use crap ammo from either source for ammo when lives are at stake. Simple!

Fireplug
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,236 Posts
"Oops, your Honor, forgot to unload my Bisley after the last hog hunt.... didn't really mean to put a .45 340gr. WFNGC through the little perp (or the two thugs standing behind him....)"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
Gunnut45,
            If in the field, and should the situation call for it, use your ammo in the gun. However, If you happen to be in the house, I would use factory ammo, with your home defense gun. I know exactly what you're saying, but, should the need arise, and you need to cap someone, you will be glad you did. Once Joe Blow expires, all the bloodsucking maggotry will start crawling out from under their rocks, and say what a great guy he was, and what an injustice it was to have someone kill him. "He didn't mean no harm", "that gun crazy, trigger happy *** was LOOKING to off somebody." Unfortunately, in todays society, if a buck can be made, right or wrong, someone is going to sue you for the unwrongful death of "good ol' Joe". You can be involved in the cleanest shoot there is. Your every action will be scrutinized to the finest minutiae, and magnified and blown all out of proportion, to make you the villain. Questions such as "Have you ever taken a gun safety course ?" , "When was the last time you qualified on a certified course?" , "When was the last time your weapon was serviced by a qualified gunsmith ?", "Have you ever altered your weapon from its original factory condition?", "How many guns do you own", "Do you hunt?" , "Do you enjoy killing animals ?", "Are you a member of the NRA?" ,"What kind of ammo was in your home defense gun ?", WHAT, Handloads, Unsanitary, filthy handloads ?" ,"Factory ammo is not deadly enough for you ?"

                These are just a few of the possible questions that will be thrown at you in civil court, after you are cleared in the cleanest, most  justifiable shooting in history. You can be declared the county hero, but if money can be made, lookout. Because it can be made, and even if you you are found not liable, how much do you think a good defense lawyer is going to cost you ?

                The deck is stacked against you, for whatever reason, right or wrong. Why give the opposition something to hone in on. Besides protecting yourself with your guns and ammo of choice, you need to protect yourself with your head.

              I'm not making any judgements, but just want people to consider everything that could happen , should the unfortunate situation of defending ones life or family, from one of societies low lifes, arise.

                     Jeff
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,236 Posts
I do generally keep my defensive guns loaded with Cor-Bons.  They are accurate and reliable, and I'd prefer to spend my time fiddling with cast bullet handloads.  

I would have to believe that any thug looking down the .45 cal barrel of a Ruger Blackhawk would quickly contemplate a career change, regardless of the load.

The entire thing is somewhat idiotic, that is, that someone could get sued for using an 'overly powerful' handgun reload... when the typical self-defense handgun round is but a mere shadow of a 12-ga slug or buckshot.  But I guess that's a reflection on the ignorant society that has been educated by TV.

Can only use factory ammo?  Gosh I guess I'll just have to shoot the creep with 'humane' Remington 225gr .338 Win mag ammo... good thing I didn't hurt he/she/it with my 'deadly' .38 special handloads....

What a world we live in!  Unfortunately Jeff is probably right.  Getting sued in civil court for Federal civil rights violations can tie up your property and assets for years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Cast-N-Blast
 This is exactly the mentallity I'm talking about. If you or I were ever put in this position(god forbid) we shouldn't be worried with these Questions. I would not have any problem standing infront of 12 good men and women and answer ever one of those questions. 1.Yes I  have- to be able to hunt in NY it's required. Annually through Mil Training.
2.As Stated before Annually (Mil. Training) 3.With 24 year experience working with and owning Firearms I consider myself more Quaified then most Gunsmiths- Relevance to me shooting a Bad Guy- He was breaking the law I wasn't?  
4.Again Relevance to me Shooting Bad Guy? 5. Yes, Again Relevance to me Shooting Bad Guy- He was breaking the law I wasn't? 6.I enjoy the great outdoors which hunting is just a part of it- I use the animals I harvest to feed myself and my famaily and the Homeless of my community.  7 Have been in the past-not cuurently-Again Relevance to me Shooting Bad Guy- He was breaking the law I wasn't?  8. Reloads or handloads- Cartridges that I have made from components. Just like the Manufactor's use to build their ammunitin they sell in the stores.  Again Relevance to me Shooting Bad Guy- He was breaking the law I wasn't? 9. My handloads/reloads are no more deadly than any other bullet a bullet is a bullet.  Again Relevance to me Shooting Bad Guy- He was breaking the law I wasn't?   Any more Questions? As I said before we should not be affaid to stand up for our right to defend ourselves or are family's. When we get to the piont where we are scared of what the courts may do we have lost!!! Knowledge is power! Be informed anddon't be affiad to stand up for what is right. Never have been never will be!!!

As an after though - Let's put the shoe on the other foot-If I was a defense lawyer-which I'm not.
I would move to have any Civil suit filed, thrown out if my client had been found to have  been  involved in a justafiable shooting . I'm sure there would be a wealth of police reports/witness testimony from that portion of legal system to do that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
Gunnut45,
            I hear you loud and clear ! Just trying to save you, and others, some aggravation. I wouldn't mind standing infront of 12 GOOD men and women, IF I could find 12 honest, unbiased, open minded people. Unfortunately, they are few and far between these days. Why risk it at all, when for a few dollars, you can buy the needed ammo. I'm all for protecting myself ,family and others, but  believe I should cover myself civilly, also. What good is being right, when you can possibly loose everything, just to make a point, when the solution is as simple as using factory ammo. I know it doesn't make sense, but then again neither does being awarded 1 million dollars for spilling hot coffee on yourself, or shooting yourself with a loaded rifle, with a trigger that was "too light". This is the REAL world we live in today. Like it or not, it's true. You're right, knowledge is power, and I would respectfully ask you to consider all options, before acting on them.

       You're absolutely right, we shouldn't have to worry about such nonsense, but it happens everyday. I would hate to loose everything, at the risk of trying to make a point. Remember, I'm on your side ! I just want people to realize what can and does happen, in the real world.

        Look what happened during the O. J. Simpson trial, if you want proof of what 12 good men and women can do. You want 12 people to determine your fate ? No thank you ! I'll do everything I can to stack the cards in my favor.

       I haven't shot a factory round in years, in my guns, but keep them loaded, with the store bought stuff, for my strategically placed home defense guns. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I am on your side. Just trying to pass on some advice to help anyone, should they be placed in the unfortunate situation of self defense.

                           Jeff

    By the way, the outcome of any criminal trial is inadmissable in civil court. Again, look at the O.J. case. Not guilty criminally, Liable of wrongfull death, civilly. Is this a great country to live in, or what ?  Think about it ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
Not knowing the back ground of those who have posted,I say this hoping none take offense.

First you all are making two different statments,if in the woods hunting and the deed has to be done then you are going to be okay with your hand loads in most cases. But if you are talking about hand loads for home defense,you all are going down the wrong path,there have been several cases over the last few years in several areas of the states where this has been an issue.
Second,why would you want to put your self behind the ball,if you are using the hunting firearm for home defense,change your ammo.it will be hard enough to prove that you have not gone out of your way to kill some one with your "special ammo"

I like the rest believe that you should be able to use what every ammo you like,but the plain truth of the matter is you can't.I have been in law enforcement for about 30 years now and have on three occasisions now had to use a gun in the defense of life.

The trails will be long and take all the money you have saved,for you to win and walk away.

Its easy to set here and post playing arm chair lawyer,but to those who spout off ####  the lawyers full speed ahead,I say this you haven't been there or been through it,you will be better off to pull back your chest and go with what is the wiser choice,i.e. FACTORY AMMO
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Leadbutt & Cast-n-blast,

I think your views on factory ammo are possibly the path of least resistance thus far, but I believe this is due to allowing the prosecutors and plaintiff's attorneys to take the initiative and frame the arguement. Our side is simply being out lawyered. The shooters counsel could, if adept, turn the handload or sporting load issue into a powerful arguement to portray the shooters state of mind as one of desparation to use whatever was available to defend himself.

Unless the facts are questionable, the key here is to deny the opposition the ability to make the defender look oveverly prepared or indeed happy to use deadly force. I think that with decent lawyering the use of a sporting weapon with handloads actually provides evidence of a defensive rather than offensive state of mind.

Quick, your first impressions as a juror when the gun and ammunition are placed in evidence: Case 1) A sporting carbine in blued steel and walnut with cast or softpoint hunting ammunition just like granpa used to hunt. Case 2) An all black high capacity autoloading pistol in 9mm with a box of factory defense loads with big gaping hollow points and a name like "Destroyers" or some such. I know which I want set in front of me at the defense's table.

Fireplug
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,236 Posts
While the handload issue is one way to get tripped up, you're already going down the wrong path if you don't know the deadly force laws of your state!  (and every state that you plan to carry a gun in).

While there may not be much you can do to prevent getting sued by some creep's family (perhaps file a lawsuit against their estate first?), you can help keep the DA off your back IF you only resorted to deadly force when it is allowed AND make it clear to those investigating the shooting.

Yes there can always be some interpretation, but that initial police report is going to go a long way towards determining the path you will go down.  When you explain to the investigating officer how your (or your family's) life was clearly threatened and you had no reasonable alternative to use deadly force that will be the best possible start.

Then get yer lawyer as quickly as you can....

Hope it doesn't happen.  Be prepared, if your state doesn't offer a concealed-carry training course that covers deadly force, get some books, find a class, read the statutes yourself, don't get caught unaware!  Ignorance of the law is not going to keep you out of trouble.

The other side is, if you don't know when you can respond with deadly force, you may hesitate to respond until it's too late, and at that point lawsuits are not going to be your problem....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
Fireplug,
          Previous case law sets the precedence for future adjudications, both criminally and civilly. As leadbutt stated earlier, this matter has already been raised numerous times in the courts, and unfortunately been raised in a negative light. Noted self defense/ deadly force expert, Mas Ayoob, has written numerous articles about this exact issue.    He HIGHLY reccomends factory ammo for CCW/ home defense situations. Ayoob has testified across the country  as an expert witness on behalf of law enforcement and civilian defendants, when the use of deadly force is executed.  

            I've been a police officer for over 17 yrs., and have been in and out of criminal and civil court the whole time(more than I care to be). Let me tell you first hand, the last thing a defense or plaintiffs lawyer cares about is the truth. I've talked to defense lawyers after trial, telling them they knew certain allegations were lies. Their response, " Hey babe, You were sworn in , I wasn't . I don't have to tell the truth. " Makes me want to puke ! You have no idea what it's like being grilled by an attorney, raising all kinds of untrue allegations and accusations, trying to remain calm, to appear as a competent, credible witness. It's not about the truth, It's about persuading the jury, one way, or the other. Lawyers look at trials as a play. There is the first act, in which opening arguements are presented, the second act in which any evidence(which may be admissable, or inadmissable, depending on preliminary arguements), and the final act, in which closing arguements are made. Guess who makes more money ? The private sector lawyer, or the state's attorney, who desires to get into private practice ? (Actually, there are a few state's attorney's that are not motivated by money, they are true gems) For a criminal trial, guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard, while civally, preponderance of evidence is the standard(50.1 wins to 49.9) Now how hard is it to sway,  cloud, or confuse the jury, to these standards ? Let me tell you, when it comes to a jury trial, anyone's guess is as good as another.

         Are we being out lawyered ? You betcha' we are. Unfortunately, we're also outnumbered. Our rights as gun owners are slowly being whittled away(especially here, back east), and we do need to stand tall, and together. That's why I'm most emphatically trying to persuade any, and all readers, to use factory ammo for self defense. I don't want to see anyone loose their lifes savings because some defense or plaintiff's attorney was a better actor than yours, in muddying the waters, to justice. Does it happen ? All the time !

             Enough ranting and raving on my part. Thank you for letting me vent my views. All I'm trying to do is help all gun owners, should the unlikely, and unfortunate happen.  

                            Jeff
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
555 Posts
cast-n-blast, this is the very reason i practice with cast, then carry 44spcl silver tip hp's. i switch ammo once on the range, then just before leaving, back to the hp's.

i have been in civil court for a workers injury lawsuit. my attorney told me exactly how the "GAME' would be played. he was 100% correct.

then took 50% right off the top. for fees plus cost's.  but without a lawyer i would have been crippled for life with nothing.

someone had better use their head here, if you use hunting ammo, you had darn better be sure your loved one is not behind the perp. else you have certainly destroyed your own family. this has happened many times.44mags are common for deer and black bear. many shots go straight through. .44spcl is a cult classic caliber for a reason. it does a thorough job on the " intended" target. use factory ammo for defense! then any HOT LOAD for hunting. just my opinion, halfbreed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
872 Posts
Gentlemen,

I understand both sides of the arguement, and I do think that we have been kind of pinned up in a corner, but i do think the defensive thinking is fairly relative.

I wish to add a couple of thoughts.  Firstly, i think responsibility plays a major role.  If you have to use your weapon, the day after you had a drastic negligent discharge in a sporting goods store, or the day after you have been popping off about wanting to be the first on your block to get a confirmed kill, i don't think anything is going to help a fellow.  But, if a fellow is a consistantly reasonable, even tempered individual, and has good practical, practiced judgement, defending his own home, then i think a fellow could use a bazooka, and nobody would say anything.  The ones that are not so cut and dried, are the ones that are worrisome.

But, if a fellow intends to filet you, or your family, the absolute worst concievable thing that can happen to you is about to.  Would i rather go to jail to save my family?  dang skippy.  Would I rather go to jail then be gutted like a pig in front of my family? surely.  I don't necessarily trust the judicial system either, but i sure trust them more than a fellow that deserves shooting.

An old soldier of mine was murdered in front of his family, in this way, in Clarksville, Tn, around 93.  Three hoods, prior felons all, two of the three high, later confessed to intending on killing him, the wife and child. When he checked the house, he left a fully loaded model 66 in the top of the closet. Was he worried about being over aggressive?  Is that the reason he left it?  I don't know. I know that he fought them with his hands, and kept them from getting his family, although today his daughter calls someone else daddy.  

CPL Chance Watson would have not cared that minute if his 66 had reloads in it.

Take care,

Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
Is a shotgun more justifiable?

I keep a DAO .45 acp handy after hours (factory fmj 230 grns), but like they say:
"There's no deterent like rackin' the slide of a 12ga pump!"
Once past the sound effects (if the delay hasn't been fatal to YOU), does a shotgun stand up in court any better?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
Elrod,
I too keep a loaded hand gun (40 s&w with hydro-shocks in it) for home defense. Couple years ago had a prowler in the yard ( I live out of town) walked to within 15 feet of him and racked my 12 ga, when the deputies got here (5 of them) they all tried to get the other to transport him, something about the airamatic smell comming from the back of his pants. (the jr. deputie had to transport). The rack sound of a 12 ga is known world wide. I carried one in nam, when I had to go in-country they were highly reconized there.

Just my bit of humor on this serious subj.



Gun Runner
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
LOL gun runner!

I tried to get a shotgun issued to me in Nam when I drove fuel truck. They wouldn't. Wanted a .45 They wouldn't.
When I started driving officers to their freedom birds in a carryall, THEN they gave me a .45!

Bastidges.

When I was on boats, I tried to get an M14 (blackmarket), but couldn't.

Wouldn't a Thompson make a dandy house defense?
Oh right, those pesky prosecutors again.

"But officer, see'n as it starts from the open bolt I figured I better get it going before he jumped me!"
;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
Elrod,
My wife has the right idea. She said if I missed them!! She would stop them by "Cooking For Them". An I aint making no comments on that as she reads this forum also...

Gun Runner
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
My wife holds to the same principle.  If it says "300 degrees for 45 minutes"  she figures 600 degrees for 22.5 minutes is the same.  If she wasn't my soulmate and I wasn't a better cook I could be in trouble.

If you can't be good at least be loud!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
My wife's cooking is excellent.

Either that, or I've got to stop using "Extra Body" shampoo, 'cause I've got extra body alright!
I'm twice the man I used to be.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top