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Discussion Starter #1
Hello from Scotland~

I have heard many good things about 180gn RN in .308.

What about 200gn, 220gn and 250gn their use and performance ???

Also required rate of twist ? I believe mine is 1 in 12"

Would be interested to hear how they perform on game.pigs,deer etc.................

What about heavy cast gas check buillets ???


Regards Englander
 

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Nawth East Moderatah
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Hello from N.J; USA

I do not have any experience with any bullets heavier than 180 grain, but those that I've shot of the 180's they were very accurate.

The 308 is my absolute favorite caliber! I've owned several rifles in the caliber, but currently I have a Winchester model 100; it's an auto-loader with a light hunting style bbl. The twist rate is 1-12RH...It has shot the 180 grainers out to 200 yards accurately. I also own the Springfield M1A, the civilian M14[US]. Although I would not use a Match Rifle to hunt, the twist on this one is 1-11RH.
The usual weight of the ammo it shoots is 168-172 grain Match Bullets.


In the Winchester hunting rifle, I usually use a 165 nosler Partition or my favorite, just due to their accuracy in my gun, the Hornaday 165 spbt. I use IMR 4064 or Hodgdon Varget as the propellants. I have taken many Northern whitetail with the .308; a very efficient hunting bullet. I am told that the .308 will take Elk, but I have no experience in that. I don't see why it would not work on any North American big game, provided you (or I) do our part...

I hope someone else will be able to shed light on the heavier end of the spectrum of bullets, as now you have made me curious Englander!

Best wishes,
Chris~
 

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I shot a bow of 180 gr. Winchester factory ammo when I first got my little H & R Ultra single shot in .308. Not much fun. I would go with it in a partition for elk but for deer the 150 gr. and the 165 gr. are fine. This year I am shooting the Nosler 125 gr. BT for deer. Very little recoil even with the close to 3000 fps load and very accurate.

I'll be posting how it does if I get a chance to take a deer with it.

Sorry I could not help on the heavy stuff but I like to shoot a lot and the heavy recoil seems to make me want to shoot less.
 

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Beartooth Regular
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Well, I can vouch for the fact that the 1-12" twist will stabilize a 200gr Speer spitzer, as they shot quite accurately in my old Winchester 70 Featherweight. I never did shoot any game with them though. Seemed to me like the velocity was mighty low (about 2400fps) and that bullet was probably meant for faster cartridges. Perhaps round noses would work OK, but personally I can't think of anything a good 180gr bullet couldn't do that a heavier bullet could. Personal opinion of course! IDShooter
 

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Gentlemen,

The only data that I recall for a super heavy bullet was the 200 grain Speer. Might ought to be a fine pig bullet, or black bear bullet at close range, but i reckon the 180 nosler partition would do just as well, if not better.

Among the 180 grainers, the hornady btsp is the most accuratte bullet I have fired in my model seven remington. It may be a little long for caliber, as I recall a little "crunch" during final seating, and that is bothersome to me, really.

I am a huge fan of the 220 grain nosler semi-spitzer, a beautifully shaped projectile with tremedous penetration potential. I doubt very seriously it can be used in anything with less capacity with an naught six, but in my thinking, it will take that grand old cartridge to a new level.

Take care, good fellows, shoot a great big one.

Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Im very suprised not to have heard from any pig poppers ! The 220gn even at low speed would surely flatten any pig/hog at close range !

Cast bullets must be ideally suited to this role ??

Any big cast bullet shooters out there ???

:confused:

For me the 180-200 would be more than enough, but still wonder what it would be like to "drop the hammer" on a stonking 250gn bullet !!!

Regards Englander
 

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You can find load data for the 220 and 250 gn bullets in Hodgdon #25, ca. 1989. Sadly, the current Hodgdon books don't cover so nice a range of bullets. The old book covered Hodgdon, IMR, and Winchester powders for the 220 gn bullets (loads apparently developed by Hodgdon themselves) and a few Hodgdon powders for the 250 gn bullets. All loads include charge, velocity and CUP for both starting and max loads. Truly sad that Hodgdon is no longer so thorough.

If you want to develop some new, safe loads, I believe Ramshot still offers to test for you upto 20 cartridges you load yourself. They would fire them in their SAAMI barrel and send you a note on the pressure and speed found. The cost was far less than the cost of reconstructive surgery for your face.

I imagine you can find a shooting buddy who has Hodgdon #25 on his shelf, and that should keep you safe.

As for effectiveness, I've not tried them yet, but hope to once I get my new Krag rifle next year. I plan to use 220 gn RN for hunting.

I've corresponded with a fellow who has taken medium African game (oryx/gemsbok) effectively with a .303 Savage, and that is only 190 gn RN at about 1950 fps, so I imagine 220 at 2300 or 250 at 2150 (per Hodgdon) would be enough for most game.

Barnes and Hawk make the 250 gn bullets. Hawk will make you a batch with thinner jackets if you want more expansion.

Karl
 

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I checked Lee's Modern Reloading and found the old Hodgdon data is
reprinted there along with some data from Accurate for a 220 gn HPBT.
Not mentioned is that the Hodgdon velocities are from a 26" barrel while
Accurate's are from a 24". My copy is the 1996 edition, printed 2001, so
I think you'll be able to get a copy.

The Powley computer and QuickLoad both give estimates for velocity in
line with the old Hodgdon data, so I think you'd be safe with it.

Sadly, Hodgdon didn't give either the bullet make or the cartridge length for their loads. The heavy RN bullets are likely designed with the throat of the .30-06
in mind. The SAAMI chamber drawings indicate the .308's throat is a bit
more generous, so you can likely get the full 2.81" cartridge length for
the .308 even with these bullets.

Heavy jacketed RN bullets at 2100 to 2400 fps are "old technology", but
have served hunters well for over 100 years. At least that's what I tell
myself.

So why is a guy in Scotland going by the handle Englander? I take it you
are originally from England. Are you guys even allowed to reload a
rifle cartridge over there? (Sorry, couldn't resist...)
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Tailwind, welcome to bear tooth bullets forum good to see a new member.

Englander ? Well live in Scotland (Highlander) but of English/Welsh ancestry, although my great grand mother was Scottish, so im a Britain at any rate.... Work mates started the Englander.....

regards Englander

:)
 

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Ken Waters lists 200 gr Speer RNSP with 40grs or IMR-3031 get out of a 24" at 2478fps. There is/was a Winchester 308 factory loading (200gr silvertip) that did 2346'.

He warns that the 200 bullets are not ideal, as they impose case seating and powder choice restrictions on the loading (long bullets). Personally, I don't like having bullets seated below case shoulder, which is the hidden "gotcha" with short action loads. They are more modern, thus "optimized" cartridges for narrower bullet ranges.

A 338-08 or .358Win might meet your needs better. The 338-08 in particular, runs some nice numbers:

200 Nosler Partition @ 2,700 fps and muzzle energy of 3,290 ft/lbs. 230 gr Winchester Failsafes will go to 2340fps.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Englander,

In response to your suggestion that the heavy bullets would be good for pigs, well, they might be, but I shot my first two pigs with a 165gr. Partition with my .30-06. As that bullet yielded perfect results, didn't see any need to go heavier.

I'm somewhat tempted to, though, just for the purposes of experimentation.
 

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Englander and friends -

From an internal ballistics perspective heavy and/or long bullets in the .308 are a COL and bullet shape issue. The 1:12 twist can't be trusted to reliably stabilize the 250 gr offerings, so 220 gr is max weight for your rifle.

Even at COL 2.80 inches, you should expect contact with the lands using Hawks, but externally these are an excellent choice if Andy will make some with thin jackets for you. See if he will send you one of any jacket thickness, and determine the COL where it contacts the lands. If you can get 2.80, this is THE bullet for you. Don't go with anything less than 2.75 inches.

The Hornady 220s are conically tapered, and should fit the 2.80 COL out of the box, but check this first.

Hodgdon Manual #26 (1992) list many powders for the 220 gr .308 application, but medium burn rate powders are the safest. H 4350 is pressure resistant to increases in bullet weight, so start there at 43.0 grs and 2142 fps (41,400 CUP). This duplicates the fine 30-40 Kraig ELK load, and may be all you need. You can work carefully up to 46.0 grs of H4350 and get 2369 fps at 45,900 fps (2745 fp). Very close to the factory 30-06, and a 200 yard trajectory.

If powder compression becomes a problem, be sure to use bullets with a cannelure, and crimp them firmly so they don't increase COL when you arn't looking. Alternatively, work with Winchester 760 starting with 42.0 grs at 2177 fps and 42,000 CUP. Increase slowly to a max of 44.0 grs at 2295 fps and 46,900 fps. Win 748 will cover the same velocity range using 6 grs less powder and a 60 fps velocity loss, but winds up at 49,900 CUP at max. Both 760 and 748 are dense ball powders, and will help resolve the compression problem. (all loads from hodgdon #26, 1992, pg 347)

High density loads in the .308 Win case are accurate, period. At 220 grs, these loads are sending a projectile with a sectional dnsity of .331 and up to 2700 fp down range, so power is not the issue.

In an 8 lb rifle, the max H4350 load will give you about 22 fp of recoil, pretty much up in the '06 area.
 
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