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can anybody explain this one??? i need some help. i shot my new 458 wm. in cz-550 safari. the factory target showed a 2" group at 100 yards with jacketed ammo, and iron sights.   the rifle was bore sighted at the gun-shop. i loaded 20, 440 gn. lbt hardcast gc wfn..459 diameter,the barrel slugged at 458 exactly, with 46 grains of xmp-5744. ( MARSHALL )  reccommends 50 grains of xmp=5744 to be maximum loads. wlr primers, o.a.l. of 3.025, the bullet started showing the rifling marks at 3.018". 5 rounds @ 3.010, 5 @ 3.015, 5 @3.018, 5 @ 3.025. every single bullet tumbled. some vertical, some horizontal, some at 45deg. point is none went in straight. i did not have a " M " die. the barrel was clean. i do not have access to a bore scope. to get a good look at the rifling. the forearm to barrel is so tight that i can't get a piece of paper under the barrel cold. i have not tried any smithing with it until i get to shoot some factory jacketed stuff. which should be here late this week. ( hopefully ) i've heard this before. if anyone has any ideas i sure would like to hear them!  OH, BY THE WAY, as far as re-coil goes, i have shot a m-70, 30-06 that has worse re-coil with 180 grainers. to put this in perspective without any type of recoil reductions other than the factory pachmayer recoil pad. thanks all halfbreed
 

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Halfbreed,

Have you checked the throat diameter on this gun yet?  If so, what dimensions did you come up with?
If the bullet has any opportunity to yaw or tip in the throat it can really wreak havok on their concentricity entering the bore.

Also, have you tested these bullets in any other gun?  Have you obtained good results in other applications with this bullet?

Try a load of 73.0g H335/WLRP and see if the situation improves, provided the throat diameter vs. bullet diameter relationship is right.  My very best loads with cast in the .458WM has been using H335.

Let us know what you find!

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #3
hello marshall, thanks for your reply. glad to hear from you. i have not checked the throat diameter, i have not tried these bullets in any other application, i have never used lbt bullets in any firearm. i would very much like to try your 450 lfn gc. however the 4-6 month waiting period would cause me to go insane i think. unless you have some of these on hand. ( that was not meant to be funny ). i realize your bullets are cast as ordered. and not just sitting on a shelf. does this h335 load need to be tight into the rifling as well. i am pretty new to this cast loading scene in rifles. i greatly appreciate your help with this. as this rifle was bought with cast bullets in mind.also would a " m " type die help in the 458 wm case. as this is a straight taper case. thank you, halfbreed,
 

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Halfbreed,

I'd be surprised if your throat diameter isn't at least .4605" and larger wouldn't be a shock.  I also would suspect that .460" diameter bullets would help in this application for the reasons mentioned in my earlier post concerning yaw before entering the bore.

Too, this cartridge thrives on a solid, tight, consistent crimp on the bullet.  Nothing better in this application than the Lee Factory Crimp Die.  It is a special order die from Lee, as it isn't a normal catalog item, however, right now Midway USA has these Factory Crimp Dies in stock as an exclusive, (to my knowledge).  It saves the custom fee charged by Lee to make one for you.  Here's the link if you want one:

http://www.midwayusa.com/online....=312525

The H335 load mentioned also MUST have a very tight crimp, and when varying crimping depth to accomodate throat length, you need some way to crimp the bullet whether or not there's a crimp groove convinently located where you need it!  Yes, these load should have the bullet engraving the lands when a round is chambered for best results.

If you don't get accuracy out of the bullets/loads in your .458WM, try them in another .45 Cal rifle such as a .45-70 and see what the potential of the bullet actually is in terms of accuracy.

Just a few more thoughts to muddy the water for you. <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #5
marshall, actually i use the lee 3 die set. this is the lee factory crimp die? i thought it was. when i bought it. i do not know anyone around here with a 45 cal rifle. to let them try these lbt's. tomorrow i will test the throat for size. i will set the crimp deeper. like you said the bullet was seated too far out for the crimp groove. also i think the meplat is too wide for smooth feeding. it balked on a couple of rounds, then went in. i will have to check on your shipping time as far as purchasing some bullets to work with. as i would very much like to find a combination that my rifle works with, then get into casting myself. do you by chance have a picture of how deep is correct for the bullet -rifling engraving? thank you sir.halfbreed
 

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Halfbreed,

The standard Lee three die set for the .458 does NOT include the Lee Factory Crimp Die.  The included die is only their standard roll crimp version the same as most other die manufacturers.  The Factory Crimp Die is a different critter altogether!  Get one, you'll be glad you did!

I'll fiddle around and see if I can locate a round or two for my .458, and get a photo of the land engagement I'm talking about.  It should be firm, and leave an impression of the lands on the front driving band, but not be so excessive as to either hinder chambering or especially uncorking a live unfired round.  There's a fine line here, and only experience will tell you where that is with your individual rifle.

I do hope all this helps you out!

Until later, God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #7
marshall, all this certainly does help out! i will order the crimp die. i know i want to get this rig shooting cast well. with help from you and others i know it will soon. i thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and enthusiasm. it is very refreshing to receive assisstance without strings attached.halfbreed
 

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Bullets will tumble if they don't spin fast enough to stabilize them. Dies and crimps won't help that problem.
Are you sure of the hardness of the bullets? They could be stripping in the rifling,  and not spinning fast enough.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
leocal, these bullets seem hard, however i have no real way to test them. they are from cabelas, ( sorry marshall ). they were the only ones i could find with gas chacks, that did not have a long wait. thanks halfbreed
 

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I don't mean to be a sad-sack, but if you .458 is anything like mine, you may not be able to shoot lead in yours.  Marshall spent hours with me trying to make mine shoot.  We shot every bullet weight from 300 to 500, and diameter from .458 to .461.  The only thing I did not try was seating out longer than the magazine as making it a single shot did not appeal to me.  My .458 is a Ruger M77 and after two years of trying to make it shoot lead I finally conceded the defeat and now shoot only jacketed.  With jacketed bullets it is a sub MOA rifle; with lead, as with your gun, all bullets fly sideways even at 25 yards.  Forget about even hitting the target at 100 yards.  
 Hopefully you will get lucky and find a combination that works, but for myself, I've given up.  I spent so much money on trying to find a "cheaper" lead bullet it would shoot that I could have bought enough jacketed bullets to keep me shooting for years.  Not to mention all the powder, primers, cases, and the waste of perfectly good cuss words trying to make it shoot.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
<!--QuoteBegin--Big Bore+April 23 2002,13:50--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Big Bore @ April 23 2002,13:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't mean to be a sad-sack, but if you .458 is anything like mine, you may not be able to shoot lead in yours.  Marshall spent hours with me trying to make mine shoot.  We shot every bullet weight from 300 to 500, and diameter from .458 to .461.  The only thing I did not try was seating out longer than the magazine as making it a single shot did not appeal to me.  My .458 is a Ruger M77 and after two years of trying to make it shoot lead I finally conceded the defeat and now shoot only jacketed.  With jacketed bullets it is a sub MOA rifle; with lead, as with your gun, all bullets fly sideways even at 25 yards.  Forget about even hitting the target at 100 yards.  
 Hopefully you will get lucky and find a combination that works, but for myself, I've given up.  I spent so much money on trying to find a "cheaper" lead bullet it would shoot that I could have bought enough jacketed bullets to keep me shooting for years.  Not to mention all the powder, primers, cases,cuss words trying to make it shoot. and the waste of perfectly good[/quote]
bigbore, i read about your problems with your 458. but was truly hoping that was a ruger thing! this rifle has a very long magazine. so i doubt that reaching out with the 500gn'ers would be a problem. although i have not measured the throat yet. i would be interested in some 461 diameter bullets, i may need them. MARSHALL gave me some very good tips. i will try them before getting in too deep. so far i have not wasted any good cuss words, i am keeping them on reserve, just for back-up. would a " m " type die be of any help with the straight taper case. it does'nt seem like it would.but i am pretty new to the cast rifle scene. one more question off the top of my noggin, have you used the 405 gn remington softpoints. midway has them, and their review says they hold up well to wm velocities. thanks everyone, halfbreed
 

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Discussion Starter #12
hey all, sorry to post and run, have had family health issues. will be back into the 458 soon. will try to check the throat and other tips you folks thought of. missed the special on the collet die. but i will have it soon. thanks halfbreed
 

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My .458 set, RCBS, came with an "M" type die as all straight walled cases should.  If your set does not have an expanding die, you should get one.  If your set has an expander die, and I'm sure it does, you do not need the "M" die.  
  May's catalog from Midway still lists the Lee Factory crimp die for the .458 Winny, so maybe they have them back in stock.  
 Hope all is well soon.  We'll be here when you get back.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
big bore, thanks for the reply, my die set does include the expander die set. i have been checking midway often looking for the crimp die.i won't miss it then. this can't take much longer. thanks for being here when i can get back full throttle. thanks friends. john
 

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Discussion Starter #15
hello all, i'm back, i slugged the barrel again. this time the throat is .461,   1/2 ways down the barrel it is .459,   and the bore is .458. i beleive this is what marshall thought it would be. i have ordered the collet die. it should be in the first of the week. the factory ammo came in a few days ago, although i have not yet had time to shoot them yet. i will do this probably this weekend. with such a large throat, would a .462 sized bullet be too big? if not where can i find them. beartooth only shows up to a .460 . i do not yet have any casting equipment. i wanted to get it shooting right before i bought a lot of equipment. particuraly the right sized and contour mold. also getting a sizer and matching top punch. i tried to order marshalls book, but somehow i could not get through. i WILL try that again soon. thanks for all the patience . halfbreed
 
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