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HOW ABOUT THAT 50 Alaskan

13K views 27 replies 15 participants last post by  shawlerbrook 
I have to take exception with you opinions of the 50s.  The 50 Alaskan is a fantastic round capable of great accuracy within it's range, which is about the same as the 45-70.  Both are 150 to 200 yard cartridges before the trajectory starts to get a little steep, and anything the 45-70 can do the 50 AK can do with quite a bit more athority.  I own both a Contender in 45-70 (15") and an Encore in 50 AK (12") they are as different as night and day.  My 45-70 launches a 300 gr. JHP bullet at 1790 fps.  My 50 AK launches a 450 gr. SP bullet at 1727 fps.  Almost the same velocity, but with a bullet weighing half again as much.  The 50 AK far surpasses the 45-70 in terms of energy at all ranges.  While the 45-70 will push it's 300 gr. pill out to arrive on target at 100 yards with 1372 ft-lbs of energy, the 50 AK's 450 gr. bullet arrives on target at 100 yards carrying 2264 ft-lbs of energy.  My 50 AK is more accurate than any of my 45-70s, including three rifles, but this is probably in part, if not wholly due to the fact that the 50 AK is using a Shilen premium bull barrel while the others use standard factory barrels (I recently, while having an extremely good day at the range, put three 750 gr. A-Max bullets out of the 50 AK -1150 fps-into .950" at 200 yards, I was really shooting out my butt that day and most likely could not repeat that performance if I tried.  That bullet is brutal out of a handgun and I don't shoot them often, only when I feel the need to punish myself for something!).  With both shooting relatively flat nose bullets, both with a 145 yard zero, the 45-70 has dropped 9.51" at 200 yards while the 50 AK has dropped 8.28" at 200 yards, so their trajectory is for all intent and purposes the same.  Both are down exactly 25" at 250 yards.

  While you did not compare the 50 AK to the 50-70 directly, your statement about the 45-70 replacing the 50-70 seems to be equating the 50-70 to the 50 AK.  They are in no way alike any moreso than the 30-30 is the twin of the 300 Weatherby even though they are both 30 calibers.  The 50 AK is quite likely the most powerful round that can be fitted into the Marlin's short 336/1895 action and gives far superior performance to the 45-70, if one feels the need for increased power over the 45-70.  I do not mean to disparage the 45-70 in any way as it is obviously one of my favorite rounds since I own 3 rifles and one handgun chambered for this great old round.  As to your admiration of the 50 BMG, you could not be more correct.  My AR-50 is by far the most accurate rifle I own in any caliber.  Any rifle that will shoot military ball ammo into less than 1/2 MOA at 500 yards is something you just have to love.
 I know that I will buy a Marlin in 50 AK if they ever quit reinventing the wheel-450 M-and do something really exciting.  I will also spend whatever it takes to convert a 45-70 to 50 AK if Marlin decides not to cash in on sure hit, but right now, I'm doing all I can to persuade Marlin to bring out an 1895 in 50 AK.  Now if they would also bring out a longer action for both the 45-70 and the 50 AK, like the old 1895's, we would really have a couple of winners on our hands.


(Edited by Big Bore at 11<!--emo&:0--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->0 am on Dec. 22, 2001)
 
MikeG, correct you are.  The 50 AK essentially gives the 50-110's performance in a smaller (shorter) cartridge.  While the recoil in a handgun is substantial, my chest is no harrier than anyone elses (my back may be now that I've found out youth does not spring eternal LOL).  The brake on this barrel does a magnificent job of taming the beast, but it is still considerably more than the 45-70 Contender.  But, with practice anyone could shoot it well.  The only thing one must do to shoot this type of round is practice, and stay on top of the gun mentally.  If you let your mind wonder, it can sneak up on you real quick!
 
Actually Bill, it is not any more expensive to build a 50 AK than it would be to build a 450M, or any other new chamber.  The work to be done on CONVERTING is not all that great, and if done from the start instead of reworking, the work is even less.  Much of the work on the conversion is reboring or replacing the barrel, and you know it is much cheaper to start with a barrel the right size from scratch.  DRC only charges &#36200 more to upgrade to 50 AK from their "basic" packages and if memory is working right tonight, WWG charges about &#36400 to do the changover on a customer's rifle.  Of course, they want a lot more money to cover outsourcing of the reboring process, machinery set-up, and of course, the one-at-a-time hand fitting.  Much cheaper to do it as the rifle is built from the ground up.  What you said about the case USE to be true, but not any more.  Starline is making correctly headstamped brass that is available now so we are no longer dependent on limited runs of 348 Win brass from Winchester.  Now if Marlin would build the rifle, and say Hornady started producing brass for it also, there would be no worry about brass supply.  As to bullet selection, how much does one want?  There are lead bullets ranging from 300 to 680 gr. that would work through the Marlin's action and jacketed bullets from 450 to 570 gr, and these are just the one's I can think of off the top of my head without doing any research.  Not knocking the 45-70, but looks to me like the 50 AK has a pretty big selection also.  While the 45-70 can take any North American game animal, that can be said for quite a few cartridges, and we certainly do not have a paucity of those types of rounds, so why not one more?  The 50 AK can reach the same speeds as the 45-70 with a bullet weighing half again as much, and arrive on target carrying about 1000 ft-lbs more energy.  Not to mention it makes a bigger hole.  All of these are comforting benefits if you are using the rifle as a "stopper" gun.  The big difference between the 50 AK and those other rounds you mentioned is you had better have very deep pockets to shoot rounds like the 585 and 700 where the brass cases alone can cost &#3635 each, and each bullet can cost up to &#365 every time you pull the trigger.  None of this is true with the 50 AK as it is just as cheap to shoot as the 45-70 or any other conventional round.  The arguement you make about not needing the 50 AK is one that can be made for ANY of the new rounds Remington and Winchester is introducing in spaces right now.  How many more 300 magnums, 7mm magnums,...do we need?  None, but, be honest now, need very seldom enters into the picture when selecting a new rifle or handgun.  I know I certainly didn't NEED my Encore 50 AK as my Contender 45-70 has never failed me, but the 50 AK is something different, something new to me, and a whole lot of fun to play around with.  Sometimes you don't want to have the same thing every one else on the block has, and that is what keeps the firearms manufactures in business.  I have 6 10-22's in the safe, for God's sake, NOBODY needs 6 10-22's, but I do and every one of them is set up for different uses from semi-serious target work to just plain fun to shoot rifle.  Let's just say we are doing our part to spur on the economy <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->  Get on board Bill, we need all the support we can muster if we are going to get Marlin to bring out the 50 AK, and we can always use a good man on our side!  Merry Christmas.    
 
Bill, when I made the statment of "almost the same velocity with a bullet weighing half again as much" I was referring to my actualy measured loads out of my 45-70 15" Contender loaded to max and my 12" Encore 50 AK loaded to what is published as max, but I do think I could go higher.  My 45-70 with a 300 gr. JHP bullet gives 1790 fps, the 50 AK with a 450 gr. JFN bullet gives 1727 fps.  As you pointed out, in rifles of equal strength, both loaded to max, this may not hold muster, but in my case in these two handguns it certainly holds true.
    The hottest load data for Lever Actions I have I just got from Hodgdon.  It lists the 45-70 with a 400 gr. SPR JFP bullet loaded to 40,000 CUP as 1995 fps with H335 and 2002 fps with H4198 at 39200 CUP.  In the 50 AK, my data shows that I can load a 600 gr. A-Square bullet to 1877 fps.  The heaviest bullet weight I can find loaded for the Lever Action 45-70 is a 500 gr. bullet at 1679 fps (Hodgdon data, CUP or PSI not given).  Looking at the heaviest bullet out of the 45-70, 500 gr at 1679 fps, and the 50 AK, 600 gr at 1877 fps, the bullet does not hold up to what I said about being half again as much, but it is considerably heavier, and that additional weight yields a ME of 4695 ft-bs and a 150 yard ME of 2982 ft-lbs.  The 500 gr. 45-70 round has 2983 ft-lb ME at the MUZZLE, and is down to 2036 ft-lbs at 150 yards.  The 500 gr. 45-70 when zeroed at 145 yards is down 9.01" at 200, while the 600 gr. 50 AK when zeroed at 145 yards is down 7.2".
   When comparing the 600 gr 50 AK to the 400 gr. 45-70, which is half again as much bullet weight, we find that the 45-70 is giving 2002 fps for 3561 ft-lbs ME, or almost 1000 ft-lbs Less than the 50 AK with it's 600 gr. bullet.  AT 150 yards the energy for the 45-70 is 2996 ft-lbs, which is HIGHER  than the 50 AK 600 gr. bullet at 2982 ft-lbs.  Here the 45-70 also holds a trajectory edge of being down only 6.66" at 200 yards vs the 7.17" drop for the 50 AK.  So we see here, we end up with almost the same energies past 150 yards for the 45-70 vs the 50 AK, but the 50 AK is doing it with a "bullet weighing half again as much" and starting out slower.

An interesting note here.  All the load data that I have rates all bullet weights as topping out at about the same velocity, around 2000 fps out of the M71 Winchester.  It just does not stand to reason then that a 450 gr. bullet moving the same vel as a 600 gr. bullet is doing so at the same pressures.  It would be VERY interesting to see what kind of load data could be generated by modern pressure guns instead of old-timers doing it by dead reckoning at what they THINK was maximum loads.  My gut feeling is that if 600 at 1877 fps really is max, then one SHOULD be able to get at least 2300 from a 450 gr. when loaded to the same pressures, but that is only my dead-reckoning guess, and probably way off.
 
 While I agree that no grizz would probably know the difference, the difference is considerable at close range, were it really counts.  I'll be honest, if faced by an irritated fly ####-bent on doing harm to my hide, I want the biggest fly-swatter that I can get.  Of course, one might make the arguement "why not go all out for such-n-such gun in such-n-such caliber" but I am wanting to compare rounds in easy to carry, relatively light weight, fast as greased lightning lever action rifles, not light weight lever actions to 15 pound doubles.

Also, I think you misunderstood my positon on the custom conversions.  Yes, it is too expensive to do a rebuild, especially when adding on all the little goodies.  My point, although after rereading my post I did not make it very clear, was that Marlin could do it from the ground up and not raise the cost of the rifle much, if any at all.  Just as they had to do feed and chamber work for the 450 M, they could also do that for the 50 AK and not have to raise the price much, if any at all.  Then the 50AK would be a much more viable option and certainly more appealing to those without bottomless pockets.

Lastly, I want to thank you for allowing us to disagree without this turning into some childish flame war.  Differences of opinions is what makes life interesting.  What a boring place it would be if we were all alike, shooting bolt-action 308s.  I do not agree with your opinion that the 50 AK is just for bragging rights, but that is your opinion and as such it is quite valuable.
 
35Remington, you are right, that would have been a more complete comparison, but I was comparing what I have, and I was not about to go out and buy an Encore 45-70 barrel for the sole sake of comparing them.  I just wish I could get some pressure equipment and see what the 50 AK will really do with real data rather than guestimates.  As I stated earlier, there is something mighty fishy about reloading data that list the same maximum load velocity for every bullet weight from 300 to 570 grains.  I have reports of getting 1300-1400 fps with the Hornady 750 gr. A-Max out of a 12 inch barrel, however, my barrel only gave 1150 fps with the same loads, so either there is a lot of difference between my barrel and their's or they were guessing at their velocities, but I'm pretty sure they said they chronoed theirs also.  Of course, 750 gr. A-Max is purely for accademic discussion since we were really interested in the 50 AK as a lever action round.  I just happened to have one in the Encore.  Don't anyone read into my posts that I have anything but great love for the .45-70, as I own 4 of them.  It really is God's chosen sledgehammer, but, from what I have been able to tell the 50 AK is certainly a notch above the great 45-70, not that most people really have any need for anything more powerful than a stiff loaded 45-70.  Still, I find myself strangely attracted to this round.  Maybe because it just looks like a 45-70 on steroids!  
 
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