I used 10 grains of Unique with a 245 grain SWC cast bullet in a Ruger Super Blackhawk at silhouette shoots back twenty years ago. The .432 dia. was the right size for the Ruger.
How to use load data with an unknown bullet and reduced case capacity
Hi everyone,
I have an JM Marlin 94 in .44 mag. It needs a .432" cast bullet the only .432" cast bullet I can get here in the Uk is a 240 gn of unknown origin. (I suspect it may be an ACME bullet mould but cannot confirm that) To be able to seat even to the start of the crimp groove my OAL is 1.581" and this is well below any published data. using data on a Lyman bullet I can work out by subtracting OAL from bullet length plus case length that there is .31" of the bullet inside the case, using this unknown bullet there is .38" inside the case thus reducing the case capacity. I have no idea where to go in terms of a safe start liad.The Lyman bullet has unique starting at 10 gns up to 11.7 with an OAL of 1.645. I have no idea where a safe start load would be Given the reduction in capacity. I would be most grateful for any suggestions, Trevor
I have an JM Marlin 94 in .44 mag. It needs a .432" cast bullet the only .432" cast bullet I can get here in the Uk is a 240 gn of unknown origin. (I suspect it may be an ACME bullet mould but cannot confirm that) To be able to seat even to the start of the crimp groove my OAL is 1.581" and this is well below any published data. using data on a Lyman bullet I can work out by subtracting OAL from bullet length plus case length that there is .31" of the bullet inside the case, using this unknown bullet there is .38" inside the case thus reducing the case capacity. I have no idea where to go in terms of a safe start liad.The Lyman bullet has unique starting at 10 gns up to 11.7 with an OAL of 1.645. I have no idea where a safe start load would be Given the reduction in capacity. I would be most grateful for any suggestions, Trevor
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I don't fool with data on my haandguns, powder's simply build pressure to quickly. With rifles it dosen't phase me to use a different manual than the bullet maker's but when I do I start low and work my way up. For cast loads in handguns, about all I shoot, I simply use the lyman manual and never get close to a max load. My bullet's are always seated to the crimping ring on the bullet, I have no idea how much into the case they are. What I look for is they fit the magazine in auto's or don't go past the cylinder mouth in revolver's. You have found that there's a difference in how much the bullet goes into the case and they may raise pressure some, maybe more than some with fast powder's. But, this is a guess, if you have the right overall length you should be able to start at a min load and workup watching pressure. I don't like doing that as pressure with those fast powders in a handgun just comes on to quick. But you might start at a min load one round at a time building to a max load, or comfortable for you load, going up only one tenth grain at a time. I do that with rifles to determine where max is going up .5gr at a time and it works well in a rifle. I'm a coward fooling with handguns so simply never get close to max. Keep in mind that this bit of though is worth exactly what you paid for it! Want good advice? Get a new mold and data from someone doing a manual for it!
Hi Thanks for that information. I have loaded a couple at 8.5 grains Unique and will see how that goes and work up slowly from there, I never go to max loads with anything, never seen the need but I just wanted to be safe and this is a bit of a shot in the dark, many thanks TrevorI don't fool with data on my haandguns, powder's simply build pressure to quickly. With rifles it dosen't phase me to use a different manual than the bullet maker's but when I do I start low and work my way up. For cast loads in handguns, about all I shoot, I simply use the lyman manual and never get close to a max load. My bullet's are always seated to the crimping ring on the bullet, I have no idea how much into the case they are. What I look for is they fit the magazine in auto's or don't go past the cylinder mouth in revolver's. You have found that there's a difference in how much the bullet goes into the case and they may raise pressure some, maybe more than some with fast powder's. But, this is a guess, if you have the right overall length you should be able to start at a min load and workup watching pressure. I don't like doing that as pressure with those fast powders in a handgun just comes on to quick. But you might start at a min load one round at a time building to a max load, or comfortable for you load, going up only one tenth grain at a time. I do that with rifles to determine where max is going up .5gr at a time and it works well in a rifle. I'm a coward fooling with handguns so simply never get close to max. Keep in mind that this bit of though is worth exactly what you paid for it! Want good advice? Get a new mold and data from someone doing a manual for it!
Trevor, I forgot to mention in my first reply, that I used an 8 grains of Unique with a 245grain cast bullet for a very mild load in my SBH.
Proper fit, i.e. bullet dia./bore dia. is necessary to prevent barrel leading.
One of my shooting buddies shoots a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag. and he found that he had much better performance with a .432 dia. bullet, over a smaller dia. bullet.
Proper fit, i.e. bullet dia./bore dia. is necessary to prevent barrel leading.
One of my shooting buddies shoots a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag. and he found that he had much better performance with a .432 dia. bullet, over a smaller dia. bullet.
Hi buddyTrevor, I forgot to mention in my first reply, that I used an 8 grains of Unique with a 245grain cast bullet for a very mild load in my SBH.
Proper fit, i.e. bullet dia./bore dia. is necessary to prevent barrel leading.
One of my shooting buddies shoots a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag. and he found that he had much better performance with a .432 dia. bullet, over a smaller dia. bullet.
Yes, I had to take a flyer on the bullet diameter based on what most people say about the micro groove rifles. Unless you cast your own over here the bullet choice is .429/.430 and that's it. I managed to get a .432 from a friend who casts and had an unknown 240 gn mould so I had to go with that. Powders are becoming like rocking horse do do where I am too so I only have Uniques, 2400 and Tin star here and there is no data I can find for Tin Star at all.
I am heading up to the range shortly to try the 8.5 gn Unique and some 9 gn and 9.5, if I see any signs of pressure I will just stop. Fingers crossed 😊😊 thanks again for help and I will let you know.x
Hey Trevor, I load for 3 S&Ws, using .430 dia. w/2400, another friend has used them in his Henry 44 mag. they shoot great out all of our guns. My load is at about 85% of max.
Hi BuddyHey Trevor, I load for 3 S&Ws, using .430 dia. w/2400, anther friend has used the in his Henry 44 mag. they shoot great out all of our guns. My load is at about 85% of max.
Just got back from our range and the 8.5 gns and 9 gns of Unique were fine, no signs of flattened primers etc, was a bit sooty though and can't vouch for accuracy, more a pattern than a group using the peel sight with my eyes. Still I will try working up slowly now to the start load of 10 gns which Lyman mentions and see how it goes From there. i also tried 7.5 gns of tin start which was also fine. Using the 240 gn XTP bullet over 19 gns of 2400 is great but I was after some plinking loads with cast bullets. Even obtaining the XTP heads now is proving nigh on impossible, everywhere is out of stock of just about everything! Thanks again buddy, Trevor
You could probably start with 18 grs. of 2400 under a 240-250 gr. cast bullet such as the Lyman 429421 Keith or(your stash), but work down from there until you start to get incomplete combustion.
Then go back up a couple of tenths of a grain.
Then go back up a couple of tenths of a grain.
The problem I have is that over here I cannot get any bullet in .432 apart from the one I have , only one company produces that size and they do not know what their mould actually is . When seated to the crimp groove, even just the start of the groove my OAL is 1.581" which is .070" below all the load data I have seen. the Case volume is reduced and that's my concern , it has dropped from 1.6 cu in to 1.5 cu in and that raises pressures, by how much I have no idea so I am going about ten percent below published start loads but that's a finger in the air job 😊 so far I have not had a squib so I am working up from there. I have no idea how big an increase there will be in pressure when reducing volume of the case by .1cu in. I wish I could buy the bullets that are quoted in the manuals but it's just not possible to buy them here. It's a PITA 😊You could probably start with 18 grs. of 2400 under a 240-250 gr. cast bullet such as the Lyman 429421 Keith or(your stash), but work down from there until you start to get incomplete combustion.
Then go back up a couple of tenths of a grain.
Your 8.5/Unique/240 gr. Cast load in .44 Magnum cases is probably very close to the Keith-Skelton .44 Special load, consisting of 7.5/Unique/240 gr. This typically gives 950 f/s from a 4" barrel. From a carbine-length barrel, such a load may exceed 1000 f/s by a small margin.
Given that you are dealing with a fairly large-capacity case, and firing it in a rifle that is fully capable of handling pressures over 40,000 p.s.i., I doubt that the shorter overall length of the loaded round will give rise to any dangerous pressures. Just check the condition of the primers and compare them to fired factory rounds, after firing your reloads.
Given that you are dealing with a fairly large-capacity case, and firing it in a rifle that is fully capable of handling pressures over 40,000 p.s.i., I doubt that the shorter overall length of the loaded round will give rise to any dangerous pressures. Just check the condition of the primers and compare them to fired factory rounds, after firing your reloads.
Many thanks, it seems ok, no flattening of primers so far up to 9.5 gns , if I can get pie plate fun at 100 yds with 8.5-9 gns then that's all I am looking for, I can use the xtp and 2400 for any heavier fun. Many thanks for taking the time to answer, it's great, best regards TrevorYour 8.5/Unique/240 gr. Cast load in .44 Magnum cases is probably very close to the Keith-Skelton .44 Special load, consisting of 7.5/Unique/240 gr. This typically gives 950 f/s from a 4" barrel. From a carbine-length barrel, such a load may exceed 1000 f/s by a small margin.
Given that you are dealing with a fairly large-capacity case, and firing it in a rifle that is fully capable of handling pressures over 40,000 p.s.i., I doubt that the shorter overall length of the loaded round will give rise to any dangerous pressures. Just check the condition of the primers and compare them to fired factory rounds, after firing your reloads.
TevorTwoTone,
A couple of odd points need to be sorted. You say you have a 240-grain bullet seated to 1.581" COL, but it is seated only 0.31" into the case. That makes the bullet only 0.616" long. That is awfully short for a 240-grain bullet. The shortest commercial lead SWC I find is the swaged Hornady at 0.710", and, due to lube grooves, most cat SWCs are more like 0.735". If you have a wadcutter or a WFN design, it could be that short, though.
Second, if you are actually seating only 0.310" deep, that's less than any of the 240-grain SWCs, so you don't have a powder space shortage if you are using SWC data. Just the opposite.
To confirm:
Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL
The 1.645" COL from your load data is odd, as 1.610" is the maximum length for a 44 Mag by SAAMI or CIP standards. It is all you can fit in a S&W m.27 revolver. Your chamber and lever feed may handle a longer number, but this should be checked.
A couple of odd points need to be sorted. You say you have a 240-grain bullet seated to 1.581" COL, but it is seated only 0.31" into the case. That makes the bullet only 0.616" long. That is awfully short for a 240-grain bullet. The shortest commercial lead SWC I find is the swaged Hornady at 0.710", and, due to lube grooves, most cat SWCs are more like 0.735". If you have a wadcutter or a WFN design, it could be that short, though.
Second, if you are actually seating only 0.310" deep, that's less than any of the 240-grain SWCs, so you don't have a powder space shortage if you are using SWC data. Just the opposite.
To confirm:
Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL
The 1.645" COL from your load data is odd, as 1.610" is the maximum length for a 44 Mag by SAAMI or CIP standards. It is all you can fit in a S&W m.27 revolver. Your chamber and lever feed may handle a longer number, but this should be checked.
Hi ThereTevorTwoTone,
A couple of odd points need to be sorted. You say you have a 240-grain bullet seated to 1.581" COL, but it is seated only 0.31" into the case. That makes the bullet only 0.616" long. That is awfully short for a 240-grain bullet. The shortest commercial lead SWC I find is the swaged Hornady at 0.710", and, due to lube grooves, most cat SWCs are more like 0.735". If you have a wadcutter or a WFN design, it could be that short, though.
Second, if you are actually seating only 0.310" deep, that's less than any of the 240-grain SWCs, so you don't have a powder space shortage if you are using SWC data. Just the opposite.
To confirm:
Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL
The 1.645" COL from your load data is odd, as 1.610" is the maximum length for a 44 Mag by SAAMI or CIP standards. It is all you can fit in a S&W m.29 revolver. Your chamber and lever feed may handle a longer number, but this should be checked.
The bullet I have is .68" long, the same as the lyman bullet in my lyman load manual however to seat this bullet even to the very edge of the crimp groove gives an OAL of 1.581" , this compared to the data in my lyman 50 th manual OAL of 1.645", therefore a reduction of case volume , I was just concerned about working out a safe start load bearing in mind case capacity has dropped by apprx 8%. The start load in my manual shows 10 gns up to 11.7 so I loaded a couple of 8.5 gns figuring I would be safe and there were no issues however I don't like going off piste as it were, many thanks for the advice,I appreciate all the great input, Trevor
It sure seems like there is something wrong with the dimensions. You don't mention the case length, is it possible that you have cases that have been trimmed shorter than standard 44 Mag. length by .070"- .080" leaving the cases at about 1.201"- 1.211"?
No, case length is 1.275", bullet length .68" , seated to crimp groove barely OAL is 1.581". The lyman 50 th it has a lyman cast bullet 240 gn and same length ( .68") with OAL at 1.645". It confused me as 1.645 seems way to long. Certainly with my bullet I would be way below the crimp groove at that.It sure seems like there is something wrong with the dimensions. You don't mention the case length, is it possible that you have cases that have been trimmed shorter than standard 44 Mag. length by .070"- .080" leaving the cases at about 1.201"- 1.211"?
Those numbers add up pretty close. Does the bullet in the book have a different profile with the crimp groove is higher on the bullet?
I can only guess as the bullets mentioned are not available here. Getting any kind of cast bullet that isn't .429 is virtually impossible unless you cast your own and that's not something I want to do really. My guess is that the crimp groove in the bullet I can get is much higher up.Those numbers add up pretty close. Does the bullet in the book have a different profile with the crimp groove is higher on the bullet?
That might work in your favor using it an the Marlin as far as feeding goes.My guess is that the crimp groove in the bullet I can get is much higher up.
Yes , I was just worried about the pressure and having to make a guess but the 8.5 gns Unique seemed ok, it's about 15% below the usual start load but with the reduced capacity it seems ok, fingers crossed I can work up from there, cheers for all the help buddy, TrevorThat might work in your favor using it an the Marlin as far as feeding goes.
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