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Coldfingers is much more qualified than I on this topic.  An interesting thread indeed, but I would think if you polled Alaskan guides all over the state that hunted the big bears, I believe you will find more using the 458 Win Mag than anything else.  Least that is so with the guides I know personally.  Second place would probably be another over 40 like the 416 Rem Mag, 404 jeffery or 416 Rigby.  Coming in very close 3rd would be the 375 H&H.  What do most bear hunting guides recommend their clients use?  At least 338 Win Mag.  Every guide I know recommends this as a minimum.  I've never asked them about a 45/70, just what their minimum recommedation would be.  That's what they said.  No leading them, just their own personal opinion.  10 out of 10.
 

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I agree with you and I don't have a 458, but... that is what most of the bear guides carry that I know.  That is what they are comfortable with.

I would not hesitate to take a 45/70, 338/06, 444 marlin or any other caliber of that class into the bear's den.  But the folks that make their living protecting hunters in the thick and nasty alder, devil's club and willow thickets choose the 458.  I haven't ask them if they would carry any of these others, but when they bought their rifle that their lives depended on, they went for something else.  All are satisfied with their choice, as none of these guys are new to the business and have had ample opportunity to get something else.  Ed Stevenson (Master Guide at Sheep Mountain) uses a 1895 Winchester rechambered to the 411 Hawk.  He's the exception.
 

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Mike and DOK,
I think familiarity and ability to use a heavy rifle is one the guides are assuming (at least in our discussions).  Most guides will communicate with their clients several times in the months preceding the hunt and will make that a requirement.  No, they don't want someone to show up in camp with a brand new rifle that has just been shot enough to sight it in.  One thing you have to think about is that these are not supposition's (at least on the guide's end).  This is what they use and what they are comfortable with.  As James Gates would say, gutpile analysis.  That isn't saying that other rounds won't suffice, maybe they will, but these guys are betting their life and their client's life.  I would go for a sure thing too.  Would you rather have a guide toting a bare minimum rifle in an alder thicket where visibility is measured in feet and the quarry has teeth and claw and is a carnivore, or would prefer to see some round that has proven itself worldwide as fully capable of stopping charges RIGHT NOW the first time, every time?  I would hesitate to hunt Cape Suckling, or other areas that are similar in vegetation and topography with someone backing me up if both of us were carrying 30/06's.  That's a personal opinion, but I'd feel much more comfortable if one of us was carrying a true "heavy" rifle.  I don't just want to kill a charging bear, I want to stop it where it is when the trigger is pulled.  I've seen some big bears killed and they take a lot of punishment.  Alaska's colorful history is littered with many stories of folks who did not use enough gun and didn't live to tell about it.

Hunting dangerous game is one thing, sneaking into rifle range of an unsuspecting animal is a completely different ball of wax than stopping an animal that has (in it's fight or flight response) made the decision to fight.  When the fight response (a true full bore charge) is made, the bear is going to kill or be killed.  The only way to stop it is to put it completely out of commission.  That does not mean hitting it in soft tissue, it means breaking it down completely where it cannot move.  There is one hunt a couple of years ago on the Alaska Peninsula where a bear (unsuspecting) was hit with 250 gr Nosler Partitions fired from a 340 Wby.  The hunter emptied the rifle into the bear before it got to him.  Yep, he killed the bear alright, but not before it removed half of his scalp and BENT his rifle barrel nearly 90 degrees.

Having said all of that, I, as a hunter would not hesitate to use a 45/70 properly loaded.  If I was contracting a guide and hunting in the thick and nasty stuff which had I rather see, a well used 45/70 or a well used 458?  No contest, I'd rather see the 458.
 

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Stranger, I can't remember where I read it, but a year or so ago read an article that included all injuries while hunting and the number one life threatening injury was falling from a tree stand.  I'm sure that led non-fatal injuries also.  Flying to and from your hunting locale is probably the most dangerous part of hunting in Alaska, followed closely by hypothermia (not being prepared for extended stays), and stream crossings.  I always read about more hurt or dead hunters in flying accidents than from bear attacks.

Sorry to disappoint, looks like Whitetail deer hunting is the most dangerous of all....

In Alaska, I'd say weather, inaccessibility and topography are greater dangers than the critters that are hunted.  Lots of snowmachine breakdowns in the middle of winter miles from the nearest village, cold and wet weather, bad flying conditions, getting lost, boats breaking down or sinking, breaking a leg with no way to get help, etc... are all very real dangers and should not be taken lightly.  Newspapers up here are full of those stories each and every year.



<!--EDIT|alyeska338|May 08 2002,10:39-->
 

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Just to muddy the waters a bit...
WDM 'Karamojo' Bell, quite possibly the greatest elephant hunter that ever lived, used the 7x57mm Mauser for his rifle to account for hundreds of elephants.  The 303 Brit was used by the masses as a great elephant rifle in the years following the Boer War.  John Linebaugh had a client of his to shoot through an elephant's skull with a 500 Linebaugh handgun with hard cast bullets.

I'm not saying us mere mortals should be using the above firearms to stop dangerous game, but if you are really really good, I guess they do work.  I don't think your clients would be real happy if you were a PH using the above class firearms as your stopper.  I wouldn't be.
 

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Hey guys,
This is an honest question and I don't mean anything by it, I'm just curious.  But the 45/70 has been around for about the last thousand years and is a fine grand cartridge.  Certainly is capable of doing great things in the hands of a cool headed skilled rifleman.  But it does beg the question, if it is Thor's hammer, and better than or equal to the 375 H&H, 458 Win, 458 Lott, etc... why doesn't it command more of a presence in the game fields of Africa, Alaska, India or Australia?  I'm curious to what the Alaskan guide was using to "back-up" his son when his son shot the 8 ft brownie.

It could be written off that the magnum craze propaganda did it harm, but it wasn't long ago that the 458 Winny was ridiculed as being a failed performer by most gun scribes.  Now out of sheer field use is considered the stopping rifle.  You can't compare apples and oranges and load the 45/70 to the top end and say it is equal to the 458, load the 458 to top end and then see.  Likewise, I don't think it's a fair comparison to pit a 375 H&H with Silvertips against a 45/70 with hardcast or a 458 with solids.

Like I said earlier, the 45/70 is grand and is very capable of at least taking care of business on bears, cape buffalo and such.  Is it the ideal gun for the PH or Master Guide whose job it is to bail out hunters that mess up?  I don't know, but if it was, I believe we would see a whole lot more of them in the fields.  Likewise sales would be much higher than they are.  Is it a 458 Winchester, a 375 H&H or something similar?  I guess we will all decide for ourselves.  If I ever go to shoot an elephant or rhino (not likely) I doubt very seriously that I will be carrying a 45/70, though I'd be happy to take it into the alders after a brownie.  If that is what you want to do, go ahead, it will probably serve you well, but I would ask your guide or PH or whatever he is called what his Professional opinion is.
 

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I agree with you Coldfingers.  I wouldn't feel undergunned in Alaska with one.  I think we are getting into the 45 LC to the 44 mag to the 475 Linebaugh to the 454 Casull to the.... argument.  Like I said before, I'd be comfortable (well as comfortable as one could be) going into the alder after Mr. Growly with a 45/70.  No doubt about it.  I've crawled in there after them with 338's and at spitting distance, you bet I'd rather have that big 45.  Shoot, as a matter of fact, I'll take a 12 gauge shotgun with Kodiak slugs, first.
 

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Coldfingers,
Yeah, I thought it was kinda weird describing going after a big bear in the dense alder patch as "comfortable".  I could be in a tank and still not be comfortable.  I think a better word would be terrified or dreadful or insane...

jnc91,
I agree with that.  They are completely different animals.  Even with top loads in today's guns, I don't think we are going to be seeing more than a handful of Master Guides in Alaska using a 45/70 as their stopper.  I doubt we see any in the hands of a PH in Africa toting one backing up his clients that are after elephant, rhino or mbogo.  There are just too many battle tested (on controlled round fed bolt guns and quick two shot doubles) veteran's of the African game fields that do all that is required without fault.  The 45/70 may be more than enough, but don't hold your breath waiting on PH's to come enmasse to the grand old cartridge.  Would I take a shot on a Cape Buffalo if I had a 45/70 with stout loads?  Yep.  When I left my house to get on the plane and head for the African bush would the 45/70 be in my rifle case?  Nope.  I don't have a 45/70 or a 416 Rigby or a 458 Winchester.  I don't have any desire to shoot a Brown Bear, Cape Buffalo, Elephant or Rhino.  I would like to go after Bongo or some of the plains animals though.
 

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Well, I spoke with 3 brownie guides last night after my last post.  I asked all three the same two questions:
1.  How would do feel about your client carrying a 45/70 with hard cast bullets like a Garret or Buffalo Bore load on a coastal brownie hunt.
2.  Would you use this as your stopper?

All three responded the same way.  "It depends".

It depended on where they hunted.  All three said they would be very happy with their clients carrying the 45/70, but prefered them not to use the hard cast bullets.  In fact 2 of the 3 said they had rather see a client carrying the 45/70 than the "minimum recommendation of the 338".  The caveat was that sometimes, especially on the Alaska Peninsula or on beaches, shots can be a bit far than they feel the 45/70 is capable of for bear.  I asked them what that was and every single one came back with 150 yards.  I don't know where they got that number and didn't ask.  One guide did say that the bullet shed velocity to fast to penetrate effectively through a bear at more than 150.  All three said the 45/70 was more than capable of taking anything in North America.  And would love to see their client toting one, especially in the brush.  The complaint from all three about cast was that it didn't expand and they considered that a negative when punching through the thick hide and fat.  All said a premium expanding that was capable of expanding but of continual penetration was the best in their experience.

The second question of would they carry a 45/70, was no.  2 of the 3 said they carried 458's and they didn't see any reason to change as the 458's had never let them down.  The other carried a 416 Remington and he said no, and gave the same reason.

Granted these are only 3 of the guides that guide for coastal brownies, but they seem to be in favor of the 45/70.  Now if someone knew an African PH, we could get a pro opinion on that side of the pond.
 

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Danger in the fields.  To my knowledge the most deadly day afield for hunters (that I'm aware of) was November 11, 1940 when a blizzard swept across the midwest on Armistice Day and caught many duck hunters in their blinds.  It was estimated that over half of the 159 people that died during the storm were duck hunters.

I think if we look at the greatest danger to hunters across all classes, weather is No. 1.  Where it is an unsuspected storm in the midwest, or fog that obliterates the mountains during flight, weather is probably the number 1 killer.
 

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Hey DOK,
Some more interesting penetration tests were done at Linebaugh's seminar last year.  He has them listed on his website.  These may be the same tests you refered to, but it is an interesting read from Linebaugh's perspective.  I think it was written up by Ken Batchelor.   Check it out at:
http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/penetration_test.htm

The 500 A-Square 570 gr solid at 2500 fps penetrated 55" as did the 45/70 530 GHH (Garrett hammerhead) at 1550 fps tied for 1st place.  The 500 Linebaugh with 495 gr LBT at 1270 fps penetrated 52".
 

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Something that hasn't been discussed much here that is probably a great consideration to PH's is the action of the rifle.  I'm not implying one way or the other here, but most bolt actions used in Africa for large dangerous game are controlled round fed actions and others that are known for their strength and dependability.  Some may not view the levers as being in that same class.  There's always been discussion about pressures that a lever will stand and some might view that as suspect.  Extraction method is another concern, most bolt guns used by PH's are of the Mauser design (not many Remingtons that I've read about).  In the case of the double rifle, your second shot is without action cycling, so it isn't a worry in that sense.  Not too many PH's these days with single shot rifles which is what you would have if you run into extraction/feeding problems.  Just another variable.  Most folks view the Mauser and Winchester M70 designs as the most dependable on the planet, might very well be one reason that you see these when you don't see double rifles.
 

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DOk,
I remember reading that Jim Carmichel was present at a test Remington performed, where they milled a brass rod with case heads at each end.  One end a Remington bolt was secured and the other a Mauser or Model 70 bolt was secured.  The two bolts were placed in a stretch test.  The brass rod showed significant elastic deformation before one extractor failed, and it was the Mauser claw extractor that failed first.  I seem to remember other tests conducted where the Remington extractor actually pulled the rim off the cases instead of releasing.

Even testing of that sort has not been able to convince the shooting public that the Mauser type claw extractor is not the most fail safe.  Public perception is everything after the first run of marketing.



<!--EDIT|alyeska338|May 16 2002,11:39-->
 

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Mike and ID,
I do agree with you that the mauser extractor is stronger inside the gun than outside (let's remember it was a REMINGTON test).  The point being that the Remington extraction system is very strong, maybe overly so.  What kind of problem would you have if you ripped the head off the case?  Yet, how many times have we heard about "improving" the Remington system by adding a Sako type extractor?  It's marketing and public perception (that was the point to be made).  I prefer the Mauser system over the Sako, Weatherby or Remington, I have no real analytical reason and no real justification, I just do.  Getting back to the failed attractiveness of a lever gun as a PH's choice, it is a push feed action and even lever gun enthusiasts question is pressure handling abilities (see the 454 Casull thread).  While it should handle the cartridges designed for and those cartridges should handle all manner of game, this gives it a label as a "weak" action (again, we are going back to public perception and not reality).  No controlled feeding, no claw type extractor, no follow up shot if extraction fails.  All of these may be hard to overcome in the eye of someone who requires the above characteristics each and everytime they head into the field.

A fine example of this was the Winchester 1895.  The '95 was tested by the military and run through a battery of horrendous tests.  The bolt was weakened, cartridge case cut through and fired.  It came through perfectly.  500 rounds of proof loaded ammo run through it (allowing to cool after each 100 round firings).  No problems.  The loads developed and fired that were supposed to disable the bolt rifles of the day were fired and there were no malfunctions.  When Winchester dropped it from their line the excuse was it was a "weak" action.  Apparently 8mm Mauser ammo was run through a lot of the 30 caliber rifles and, of course, many of the rifles were ruined.  Winchester labeled the weak (in a press release) and dropped it.  Winchester had the same problem with their bolt rifles, but did not dare to label them as weak.   Public perception.
 

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Kind of off topic, but isn't Craig Boddington a Brig General now?

Mr. Garrett's loads are definitely worth considering it seems.  He is definitely leveling the playing field.
 

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Danger Afield in Alaska, another tale...

Hand-held radio led to rescue
SAVED:Lost hunters sent mayday call; AWACS crew directed chopper.


By Zaz Hollander
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: May 20, 2002)
Two bear hunters stranded by a whiteout in the foothills of the Alaska Range last month survived with help from a U.S. Air Force radar plane cruising miles above the storm.

Lost without survival gear, hunters Devon Day and Mike Thompson spent the night of April 17 away from their camp in a tiny snow cave between Capps Glacier and Beluga Lake, near Mount Spurr. The next day, they struggled to walk -- much less find their camp -- as exhaustion and hypothermia set in.

Then an E-3 Sentry AWACS crew on a training exercise heard Day's mayday call on a small hand-held radio he carried. At the same time, the Rescue Coordination Center at Fort Richardson was receiving calls from other planes that were hearing the mayday. The center dispatched an Air National Guard HH-60 helicopter to the area.

The AWACS crew relayed the hunters' position to the helicopter, which was struggling to find the men in the thick cloud cover.

The copter landed on a bench at 1,700 feet and lifted them to safety. The men were suffering the effects of hypothermia but were otherwise fine.

On Thursday, Day and his family met with the radar plane crew that helped save his life. The setting: a send-off picnic for members of the 962nd Airborne Air Control Squadron who are leaving in late May or early June for Saudi Arabia to monitor the no-fly zone over southern Iraq.

Squadron members who fly in AWACS -- Airborne Warning and Control System -- jets usually don't get to see such immediate results.

AWACS crews work removed from the action, strapped into chairs in a windowless airplane at 32,000 feet, staring at computer screens, radar scopes and other high-tech communications and surveillance gear.


"We have a $300 million jet that can do a lot of sophisticated stuff, and we went out there and saved a couple lives," Sgt. Julian Joseph said after he met Day's family at the picnic. "It kind of makes my job worthwhile."

If the men hadn't been rescued that day, they probably would have died, said Lt. Col. Chuck Foster, director of the Rescue Coordination Center at Fort Richardson.

Paramedics on the helicopter that rescued Day told him his body temperature was just under 94 degrees.

Helicopter pilot Lt. Col. Riff Patton said finding the hunters without help from the E-3 would have been nearly impossible because low clouds forced him to fly below the hunters and out of radio contact.

Day, a longtime friend of Judd Lake guide Dean Hilde, is a trucking and equipment contractor who lives in Anchorage. Thompson, who helps Hilde guide bear hunts, is a machinist from Maryland who lives in a suburb of San Francisco.

Both men this week acknowledged they were ill-prepared for their emergency. Day chose not to wear snowshoes when they started to hunt, and he quickly grew tired from postholing in the snow.

Neither hunter wore gloves toward the end because both had soaked through while they dug their snow cave.

And they left camp with light packs containing no survival gear, no fire-making tools, no map and no compass.

The hunters were savvy enough to stay alive in conditions that could have killed them but made several potentially fatal mistakes, such as not carrying a way to start a fire or stay warm, said Jerry Lewanski, chief ranger for Chugach State Park.

Generally, anyone heading into the backcountry should get a detailed weather forecast and stay put if he gets lost, Lewanski said.

"If you're a mile from camp, you might as well be 100 miles if you break a leg," he said. "You have to be incredibly prepared for emergencies. I'm not going to pick on these guys, because they probably did what many people do. When you leave camp, there's this false sense of security."

Thompson and Day say that's basically what happened to them.

The weather looked good the morning of April 17. The rock face where they'd seen a bear from the air was about two hours away.

Each man carried a canteen of water and a granola bar. Thompson carried an emergency blanket. Day also carried two large heavy-duty trash bags in case they had to pack out a bear hide.

About two hours out, the snow started. Day suggested they turn around.

Ten minutes later, clouds lowered to the ground and an icy snow started blowing sideways. Visibility dropped to zero.

Day, carrying a VHF radio, tried with no luck to broadcast mayday calls to jets he heard overhead four or five times that day.

The exertion of the trek soaked a cotton shirt Day wore under layers of flannel and a Gore-Tex jacket. Chilled and drained, he told Thompson he had to stop for the night about 8 or 9 p.m.

Day dug a snow cave wide enough for both men. But Day, his muscles cramping and soaked from snow that melted in the cave, didn't want to sleep. He stayed awake pacing and trying to stave off hypothermia.

The men decided to wear the garbage bags as a wind and water barrier.

At first light, they started walking again. Thompson had left his snowshoes in camp, supporting a shelter the men built overnight. Day was dizzy and shivering.

Finally, around 10 a.m. on April 18, a Federal Express jet heard the mayday message, as did several other planes that relayed the problem to the Rescue Coordination Center.

Both hunters pledge to carry global positioning system equipment in the future so they can pinpoint their camp or their position if lost.

"When I went home, I got off the plane in San Jose. I got in at like 9 or 10," Thompson said. "At 12, I was at REI. I bought a GPS" unit.
 

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Ross Seyfreid has an excellent article about cast bullet penetration and use in Africa in the current edition of Handloading.  Anyone that has been interested in this thread should pick up a copy.  He also covers some of the prejudicies against lever guns in Africa.
 

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Ross had none, but explained that during the golden age of African hunting most PH's were of British nationality and the levergun being an symbol of the American "Wild West" was viewed as uncivilized or not proper for the elite class of Brits that hunted Africa (no offense intended to our fine brethern here on the forum from across the pond).  Of course during those times, most levergun cartridges lacked proper loadings and those prejudicies have carried over to this day.

I guess one of the main reason folks go to Africa to hunt, is not meat, but more for the experience created in the books that were written by the British, in which the double rifles and nitro loadings were explicitly detailed.  Just as a lever gun or Remington or Winchester would serve Prince William perfectly, his stature in British (and world) society deemed it more appropriate for him to have a $40,000 243.  <!--emo&???--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->



<!--EDIT|alyeska338|May 24 2002,16:04-->
 

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This topic has been bantered about quite a bit in the past. Check the Alaska Hunting Forum and the African Hunting Forum.
 
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