[MikeG]

I believe that, elsewhere on this site, Marshall has some photos/stories of hunters in Africa using his bullets.

Also, I know that Buffalo Bore, Garrett, and maybe Cor-Bon all have had customers successfully using their cast bullet loads in Africa.  

If I could go I'd be entirely satisfied with a .45-70 and cast bullets.  A PH, however has a different role than the hunter, and probably would choose heavier armament than I would.  Not sure if I could handle a .458 Win Mag on a daily basis but presumably a PH can.

 

[MikeG]

Dan,

You hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned.  I would have to think that the PH would want, first and foremost, a client to have a gun/cartridge that the client could accurately shoot!  Not only for the first critical shot, but for any fast/furious lead-slinging that may happen if things don't go as planned.  After all, in a charge the hunter may have the opportunity to help settle things, as well as the PH.

The PH should be selecting their arms on the same basis, but logically, we might assume they can handle more firepower.  If so, great.  But for the average hunter, things are going to go a LOT more smoothly if they show up with a .338, or even .30-06, that they can handle, vs. a .458 that they are afraid of.  Heck, my .35 Rem through a leopard's shoulders beats the heck out of missing with ANYTHING!

A .45-70 through the shoulder/lung area is much more sporting than a .458 Win Mag through the guts... and frankly, anyone who doubts the effectiveness of hard cast bullets probably hasn't tried them!  I have gotten several FEET of penetration.... from a HANDGUN.... now what sort of increase do I get when I add 100 grains of bullet weight and 800fps from a rifle?????  

The only game I think that I might be a little hesitant to shoot with a heavy cast bullet is an elephant, as I don't know that such a bullet would go through several feet of bone in an elephant's skull (it might but I don't know).  In that case I'd just dispense with conventional lead core bullets as well, and go for a 'monolithic' solid like the Barnes or A-Square.

As Scotty points out, a reluctance on changing what has been proven to work may be why the PH's are staying with .458/500gr. solids.  Frankly, if I had been a PH for years and had learned to use that combination, I'd be a little reluctant to experiment (bad environment to risk a mistake!).  I have also read that some PH's have gone to the Marlins for thin stuff like lions (which really aren't all that big in the scheme of things) but I can't remember where I read it.

 

[MikeG]

Jack, Dan,

People like that "MePlat" character are just troublemakers who enjoy stirring up a fight.  They are best ignored.  We are fortunate to not have too many around here.

The great buffalo herds were largely wiped out with .45-70's and gov't surplus .50-70's and black powder.... 'nuf said!

Fun discussion, all.

 

[MikeG]

Well, gents, when all else fails... read the directions!  (or something like that).

I just checked out the Buffalo Bore web site... www.buffalobore.com and their page of field results:

http://www.buffalobore.com/hunts/Default.htm

Here it the caption of the third item from the bottom on the right:

"Ed Seyffert -Cape
Buffalo taken with
Guide Gun & Item 8A
Complete penetration thru
both shoulders"

Hmm.... it seems that those who claim that a .45-70 won't penetrate "a" cape buffalo's shoulder are partially correct:  rather, it actually penetrates BOTH shoulders...

Also, head on over to www.garrettcartridges.com, on the 'reviews' page, for more stories about dangerous game taken with the .45-70 and his 420 gr. and 540 (!) gr. cast bullet loads, including stopping a point-blank charge of a leopard, and several very dead cape buffalo, as well as a testimonial by a grizzly bear guide (PH if you will).

So... what again can we not shoot with a .45-70 and cast bullets?  I keep forgetting....

 

[MikeG]

Jack, I've shot a lot of pigs without being charged (actually ran one down or 'charged' it myself if you will), but I personally know two people that have been charged by wounded pigs.

One saved his buddy with a quick rifle shot from a .30-06 or .270, I don't remember which, and the other put the charging piggy down with two head shots from a .45 Auto.

Also a third reliable incident, where I don't know the person involved but do know his brother-in-law, where a wounded pig tried to get up and bite the hunter (not really a charge but it was one big ugly pig and you would not have wanted to mess with it).

So yeah they do from time to time.

 

[MikeG]

My father-in-law shot a prairie dog with his .50 cal muzzleloader a while back.  I think he uses the Buffalo or Hornady conical bullets (in the neighborhood of 350-400 grains).  Says it rolled the 'dog off the mound pretty good!

 

[MikeG]

Wow.... you guys have 'almost' talked me into shooting a .458 should the opportunity arise!

I've actually shot a .50 BMG single-shot a few times, but it's a 22lb. gun with a big 'ol muzzle brake.  Isn't bad at all, from prone.

I believe you when you say that the lever guns don't have great stock designs for recoil.  Even my .35 Rem Marlin will smack me shooting factory ammo if I'm not holding it correctly.

 

[MikeG]

Dan,

Good point that we sometimes fail to analyze things, instead going on emotional reaction or vague rumors.

So... with that in mind, I'd like to contribute a few observations:

First, I don't think that the .458/round nose vs. .45-70 cast is necessarily an invalid comparison.  After all, that's how these two rounds came into being!  I'm sure that many if not most .458's are set up to feed round nose bullets, as that's what's available, and .45-70's generally set up to feed flat-nosed cast (or jacketed), again because that's what's available and that's what's correct for the guns.

There are a few flat-nosed solids for the .458 but not many, I have seen pictures of Trophy Bonded and I believe that they had a nose flat.  Now that would make an interesting comparison, the .458 with a flat-nosed solid, let's see how far that would penetrate and would it be a significantly greater wound channel than the round-nosed bullet at the same velocity?

Or, let's crank up the hard cast .45-70 bullet in the .458 and see what happens.  Point two... quite often a little less velocity makes a bullet penetrate further.  Garrett's 500+ gr. bullets are moving well below the speed that it would take to make them expand, so they keep their profile and don't lose any energy due to deformation.

Crank up the hard cast to over 2,000fps and I'd bet anything that it will penetrate less, due to some nose expansion.

More evidence that 'less may be more' - note the amazing penetration of the ~350gr. .45 Colt bullet at 'only' 1400 fps.  I'm quite pleased by that as it is similar to the bullet that I shoot in my revolvers, although not nearly that fast.

So... that would lead to the conclusion that if you download a .458 to .45-70 velocities with a hard cast bullet, could it be MORE effective (as far as penetration) than the factory .458 round nose solid?  Seems a little hard to believe but it is really not a matter of one cartridge being superior to the other, more that they each have some different characteristics due to the types of bullets that each commonly shoots.  But as each cartridge commonly has certain ammunition available, it is still a fair comparison to pit one against the other with the available loads, in their respective guns.

Well.... that ought to stir things up.  Oh and one note on the extractor test:  I believe that the Mauser extractor will work better in the gun than out of it.  While holding a round in the chamber, the Mauser extractor should be supported by the barrel and receiver wall, preventing it from pulling away from the rim.   The Remington extractor is of course supported by the bolt face whether it is in the gun or not, so it should perform the same either way.

By the way I'm not taking sides in the extractor debate, I believe that both are perfectly good designs, and under normal circumstances, the first thing that should fail is the case rim, not the extractor.  The mauser design would be quite a lot easier to service in the field, however.

 

[MikeG]

ID,

Get yourself a bayonet lug welded onto the barrel of your rifle before you go after those groundhogs again!

 

[MikeG]

Some good points about lever gun strength and extraction, BUT... there is no reason a lever gun cannot be made to be strong and maybe even have controlled feed.

Materials are one issue, I'll bet a titanium receiver on a Marlin 336 would stand some enourmous pressures.  As for the push-feed vs. controlled feed, well if the catridge carrier/lifter are designed to prevent a round from coming out of the magazine while a round is on the lifter, that's one problem solved.

Actually, once a cartridge gets on the carrier, on a Marlin 336 it's pretty hard to make it not feed.  I've tried to unload the gun by just opening the receiver and with the lever open, turn the gun so that the ejection port is down and shake the round out.  Finally I just gave up!  I'm sure it can be done but it's not easy, and to me it doesn't seem likely to happen under any sort of hunting conditions.

An open-top like a Win '86, '92, '94, etc., may be another story but in my limited experience with the center-fire Marlins they seem to feed under any conditions pretty reliably.  I do agree that their extrator may not be the best in the world, it's just a thin stamping.

Plus you can top off a lever gun without cycling the bolt just by pushing another cartridge into the magazine.  And you can just drop another cartridge in the gun with the lever open if it has totally run dry.  Not all controlled feed guns will do that, some will not ride the extractor over the rim of a case in the chamber, at least not without some help from your other hand pushing in on the back of the extractor to help it jump the rim.  So those would be desireable traits in a dangerous game rifle, and some real advantages over bolt guns.

 

[MikeG]

You gotta watch out for those coffee cans. Sometimes the rusty ones will give you quite a nasty cut.....

 

[MikeG]

Agreed about the hogs. Have had to deal with semi-wild hogs in a trap, and boys, you don't want to wade in there till they are well and truly dead!

The biting end of just about any critter is dangerous.....