Shooters Forum banner
1 - 20 of 179 Posts

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
Stranger,

"Having absolutely no experience with African hunting" fits my situation also. The articles I've read suggest the .375H&H is the minimum and you are better prepared if you have a .416 or larger caliber.  The bullet, expanding or solid, obviously depends on the type of animal involved. I'm simply not qualified to declare jacketed as necessary, and by nature, I'm not a blind follower, but it is awfully hard to argue against the traditional tools used by the PHs in Africa. That's why I asked about changing the question. Would the cast bullet shooter, hunting buffalo, in his/her heart of hearts, still select that tool if the PH used the same tool. I'd also suggest they watch some VCR film showing the potential challenges that arise.

My local shop, Sheels All-Sport, is a pretty good sized shop, with a significant selection, including the African rifles. While you can spend a lot of money on the African rifes, you can also buy a Winchester 70 in .375 or .418 for $800. The Dakota rifles run $2500 and Weatherby is also expensive. But it would appear you can purchase an acceptable African rifle for not a lot more than the 45-70's will cost you.  The ammo would set you back a bit, but it's cheap compared to the risk.

When in doubt and life is at stake, I'd rather error on the high side.... .416 or more with solid jacketed.

Dan
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
I've added this post to the "THE ACCURATERELOADING FORUMS" They have a category option, "African Big Game Hunting" that has 2656 topics and 31125 posts. My topic title is "Cast Bullets/Lever Action for Bullalo/Elephant"
I hope my post (below) accurately conveys our basic question(s) and that we'll get good responses.

Dan

"We have a lively discussion going on the Beartooth Bullet web site debating the potential for cast bullets and lever action rifles in the taking of Africa's big five, particularly buffalo. While some comment that the big five have been taken with .44mag/.454Casull/.475Linebaugh (and bow and arrow for buffalo), the assumption has been that the backup PH would use jacketed solids in .400 or larger caliber when addessing African buffalo/elephant. This comment was made today, "I've heard that more and more PHs are using 1895Gs as back ups. They cite the fast handling qualities and light weight as reasons. Any truth to that?"

So we're hoping you folks can help us with this question, as well as why solid core, jacketed bullets versus hard cast bullets of the same weight insights.

Dan"
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
We got our first reply within 15 minutes.

"Dan,
Use the Search feature to check the archives, and you will find MANY discussions on this topic.
As for more and more PHs using 1895Gs as bakup, I think you will find that is a South African phenomenon. Damned few South African PHs have to stop charges by dangerous game; they may have to put bullets into fleeing game wounded by the client, so getting a lot of lead into the air quickly might be their priority, not stopping charging Cape buffalos."

Stranger, how about you taking a shot at doing the search (for which I'm embarrassed to have to be told)?  The web site is:

http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin....ie=true

I'll take a shot at the search also, and hopefully others will also so we can make sure we find any pertinent information for our questions.

Dan
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
Three more responses:

From Belgium:
A good compromised will be a powerful handgun cartridge in a lever like .475 Linebaugh  
But I don't know any lever wich can reach pressure of that rounds.
For me, best lever for Africa .450 and .500 Alaskan or a 50-110 lever.
a 465 gr bullet at 2035 fps with the .450 Alaskan lever gun
a 485 gr bullet at 2010 fps with the .500 Alaskan lever gun
With enough penetration for big five game animals.
I'll be more confident with my bolt action rifle in .450 Ackley mag.Just me personal choice.
-----------------------------------------------
From Utah:
"I've heard that more and more PHs are using 1895Gs as back ups. They cite the fast handling qualities and light weight as reasons."
Pure B.S. You won't find that in the hands of a PH who makes his living hunting dangerous game.
But it's fun to talk BS on websites.
-----------------------------------------------
From California:
I understand there are several PHs using these lever actions when hunting leopard with dogs but I can't imagine them using it for anything else.
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
Stranger,

Excellent summary. I did a search on "cast bullet" and got 194 hits, and as Stranger indicated, it isn't cut and dried. We've had eight direct responses to our original post and there is noticable "warmth" in the idea of the hunter using an appropriate weapon that would not require a PH to back them up.

In any case, I would recommend that interested parties visit the referenced web site and do their own search.

Dan
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
alyeska338,

If my search summary of the various posts in "African Big Game Hunting" is correct, the most mentioned cartridge was the .458 Win. Mag. as the preferred item for cape buffalo/elephant.

To get a better appreciation for the .458 Win Mag, I did a quick search and found the following article. The author also covers the .460 Weatherby Mag which I have seen shot at our local range. I was on the pistol range and noticed a shooter on the rifle range shoot and then walk around for about 10/15 minutes. Shoot again and same walk.  I stopped on my way out and asked what he was shooting. He said .460 Weatherby Mag and showed me the shell that looked like my thumb. I asked, "What in the world do you shoot with that?" and he replied, "Moose."  That's how I developed my respect for Mr. Moose. This guy wasn't a real happy shooter. And I'd have to have the cape buffalo/bear really convince me they were serious before I'd want to shoot that rifle.

Dan

The .458 Winchester Magnum
& .460 Weatherby Magnum

By Chuck Hawks

.458 Winchester Magnum
The .458 Winchester Magnum is the most popular "elephant rifle" cartridge in the world. It was introduced in 1956; the first of the original series of three Winchester belted magnum cartridges for standard length actions. (The other two were the .264 Mag. and the .338 Mag.) It quickly established itself as a premier cartridge for thick-skinned dangerous game (elephant, rhino, and buffalo). The .458 appeared in a special version of the Model 70 bolt action rifle named the "African." I have heard that its immediate acceptance and popularity surprised even Winchester.

It was a time when air travel was beginning to allow affluent middle-class hunters from North America to embark on African safaris that only ten years earlier had been prohibitively expensive and time-consuming. In 1956, the year the .458 Mag. appeared, the introduction of the Douglas DC-7C airliner made possible reasonably affordable nonstop Trans-Atlantic air service in both directions. It was followed by the Lockheed Starliner, which entered Trans-Atlantic service in 1957. The Boeing 707 jetliner entered service in 1958, and the first Douglas commercial jetliner, the DC-8, entered service in 1959. The .458 Win. Mag. turned out to be the right cartridge at the right time.

The ballistic performance of the .458 Win. Mag. was based very closely on that of the pioneering British Nitro Express big bore cartridge, the .450 Nitro Express, and its popular successor the .470 Nitro Express. The .470 Nitro Express had became the most popular of all the British elephant rifle cartridges. As originally loaded with cordite (British smokeless) powder, it drove a 500 grain bullet at a MV of 2,125 fps for a ME of 5,030 ft. lbs. Performance on thick-skinned dangerous game was, and is, excellent.

This was the baseline the .458 Win. was designed to match, and Winchester's original .458 factory loads were exactly the same as above. Recoil from the .458 Magnum is terrific, of course. About 65 ft. lbs. of recoil energy from the 500 grain bullet at 2,125 fps in a 9.5 pound rifle.

The main drawback to any of the Nitro Express cartridges is their length. They were designed for break action double rifles, not repeaters. And new double rifles are prohibitively expensive for all but the very rich, which is where the .458 Win. Mag. comes in.

The .458 works through standard length bolt action rifles, and duplicates the traditional ballistics of the .470 N.E. Several manufacturers chamber their bolt action rifles for the .458 Magnum, including Remington, Ruger, Savage, and Winchester. It is also chambered in modern single shot rifles, like the elegant Ruger No. 1H Tropical Rifle.

Reloaders have their choice of 300, 350, 400, and 500 grain .458" bullets in soft point, controlled expansion, and solid (full metal jacket) types. Top reloads run 2,100-2,200 fps with 500 grain bullets. Maximum permissible pressure for the .458 Mag is 53,000 cup.

In the U.S. .458 Mag. factory loads are available from A-Square, Federal, Hornady, Norma, Remington, Speer and Winchester. Bullet weights run from 350-510 grains in both expanding and non-expanding (solid) types. .458 Mag. ammunition is manufactured and distributed world wide.

Federal offers a Premium Safari 350 grain soft point bullet (SD .238) at a MV of 2,470 fps and a ME of 4,740 ft. lbs. The figures at 100 yards are 1,990 fps and 3,065 ft. lbs. This load is primarily for hunters wishing to use their .458's on large North American game.

Another Federal Premium Safari load is a 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (controlled expansion) bullet at a MV of 2,380 fps and a ME of 5,030 ft. lbs. That ought to stop the biggest Alaskan brown bear or African lion that ever lived.

Federal's Premium Safari line also has a couple of 500 grain controlled expansion type bullets, and a 500 grain solid. All of these are loaded to a MV of 2,090 fps and a ME of 4,850 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 1,870 fps and 3,880 ft. lbs. The solid is the ticket for breaking down thick-skinned dangerous game like elephant, rhino, and Cape buffalo.

The Federal Premium Safari 510 gr. soft point bullet, a traditional load for the .458, has a MV of 2,090 fps and a ME of 4,895 ft. lbs. The figures at 100 yards are 1,820 fps and 3,730 ft. lbs. This load has always been regarded as a "stopper" for thin-skinned dangerous game like lion and tiger, or heart/lung shots on buffalo. The Winchester 510 gr. Super-X load, at a MV of 2,040 fps, is similar.

Remington, in their Premier Safari Grade line, offers a 450 grain Swift A-Frame (partitioned) bullet at a MV of 2,150 fps and a ME of 4,618 ft. lbs. The figures at 100 yards are 1,901 fps and 3,609 ft. lbs. This ought to make a pretty good general purpose load for the .458 Win. Mag.

None of the .458 Mag. loads are suited to long range shooting. Typical trajectory for a 500-510 grain factory load zeroed at 100 yards shows an 8.5" to 9" drop at 200 yards. The .458 is about a 150 yard big game cartridge.

The flattest shooting of all the factory loads is the Remington 450 grain A-Frame bullet. Its trajectory looks like this: +1.8" at 100 yards, 0" at 150 yards, and -4.6" at 200 yards. It makes the .458 about a 200 yard big game cartridge. At 200 yards that bullet retains 2,789 ft. lbs. of energy, slightly less than the best loads for the .338 Win. Mag. and the .375 H&H Mag. at that range.

.460 Weatherby Magnum
The big .460 Weatherby Magnum is based on the .378 Weatherby case necked up to accept .458" bullets, the same bullets used by the .458 Win. Mag. It was introduced in 1958, no doubt in response to the unexpected popularity of Winchester's .458 Mag.

Weatherby's ultimate magnum had to be spectacular, and the .460 is. Weatherby factory loads launch a 500 grain bullet at 2,600 fps with 7,504 ft. lbs. of energy. At the time of its introduction it was alleged to be the most powerful big game cartridge in the world, a claim disputed, by the way, by proponents of the .600 Nitro Express. Regardless, the .460 Wby. Mag. is one powerful cartridge. Just the thing to have if a T-Rex comes calling.

Handloaders can push a 300 grain bullet to over 3,000 fps, a 350 grain bullet to about 2,950 fps, a 400 grain bullet to over 2,750 fps, and a 500 grain bullet to about 2,650 fps. Why anyone would want to do so is beside the point--like Mount Everest, the .460 Wby. Mag. is there.

It takes real nerve to touch off a round from a .460 Weatherby rifle. The Weatherby Mark V rifle in this caliber has a 26" barrel and weighs 10.5 pounds. Fire a 500 grain bullet at 2,650 fps and you are going to have to deal with 109.7 ft. lbs. of recoil energy!

Weatherby factory loads offer a 450 grain Barnes-X bullet at 2,700 fps and 7,248 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. Also 500 grain soft point and FMJ bullets, both at 2,600 fps and 7,504 ft. lbs. of ME. The only other company to load .460 ammo is A-Square, who offers a 500 grain "Triad" bullet at 2,580 fps and 7,389 ft. lbs. of ME.

Ballistics tables show that if the 500 grain Weatherby factory loads are zeroed at 200 yards, the bullet will strike about 2.5" high at 100 yards and 11" low at 300 yards. For those few who can shoot it accurately, the .460 is a 250+ yard big game cartridge.



<!--EDIT|DOK|May 07 2002,20:03-->
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
Mr. Twillis,

Sincerely appreciate the compliment. The mistake I originally made was by mentioning the Beartooth web site, that put me in the position of needing to be civil, which is not my normal status (ask Mom of my wife). And yes, it appears to be a rather huffy group. One indicated we needed to appreciate this was a "big bore" site, and he was correct, with emphasis on "bore" for some of the folks.

Anyway, a couple responses offered the insight that the Mr. Atkinson that responded was an experienced BG (notice how I'm learning the language?) hunter. He has just posted again with a courteous input that I found interesting. I have included his web site address, which I also found interesting. A combination of the various responses and other sources suggest a 500gr. at about 2230 fps is adequate performance, and that the .458 cartridge was a commonly recommended cartridge -- please note that Mr. Atkinson doesn't appear to agree with either recommendation.

"Atkinson
Super Member
Posts: 5151
From: Twin Falls, Idaho
Registered: Jun 2000
 posted 05-09-2002 21:41                
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to clear the air on my original post, I know the 45-70 will kill a Buffalo with hard cast bullets on a broadside shot that does not hit the massive shoulder bone...I know the Buff will live awhile before it dies...I know it may charge...
I don't know if the 45-70 with any bullet will penitrate a buff lenthwise and that is a requirement...I don't know how effective a 500 gr. bullet at lower velocity is other than I have shot Buffalo at extended ranges with a 458 Lott and was not impressed with the results...I doubt that I will ever know because I'm not interrested in performing a stunt when all those wonderfully powerfull calibers are out there for me to use...

I have experienced charges and I have a very, very healthy respect for Buffalo, Lion, Leopard, Hippo and Elephant, they can and they do kill people every single year...

And finally I have noticed that the folks that want to try these stunts are invaribly first time dangerous game hunters with the rare exception of a few like Ross Seyfried, and if I could shoot a pistol like Ross Seyfried I would take on the devil with a Saturday Night Special.

I do however protect anyones right to do so as long as it is legal, so if you must use a 45-70 then by all means do so, but at your own risk and the PH's. If the PH agrees then shame on him if things go South..but doesn't this apply to bow hunting, black Powder and other forms of hunting. I think so.

Bottom line is I am not opposed to anything legal in hunting, just don't care to do it myself in most instances, and this is one of them. I choose to not use a 45-70 for DG.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

[email protected]
atkinsonhunting.com



<!--EDIT|DOK|May 09 2002,12:49-->
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
Good stuff, Mike. The last two posters on the African BG site also chipped in for the 45-70 and gave the others a little "kick b___" back in their faces:

First response:
Every time this subject comes up people go and compare the 45/70 to a .458 Lott or .460 Weatherby. I agree that their is no comparison between the 45/70 and these calibers. I will maintain however that the 45/70 if properly loaded with the proper hardcast bullets and proper shot placement is in the same class as the .375 and 9.3x62. Each must be properly loaded with the right bullet and the shot must be properly placed to be effective. I would rather have a 45/70 with good hardcast than any caliber be it the .375, .458 Lott, 470 Capstick or larger loaded with the wrong bullet such as a soft that is not up to the velocity of your super mag of choice. Just refer back to the .470 Capstick that turned a 500 grain Woodleigh inside out on a buff. Seems the 500 grainer was designed for 470 nitro velocities add 300 fps and you get catastrophic bullet failure. I don't think that there is a poster on this board who would have advised that hunter prior to that shot not to use that combo yet it failed miserably. The .375 was a grand failure on buff when loaded with the Winchester Silvertip. However at 30/06 veolocities I have seen 150 grain silvertip blow a hole clean through a whitetail at close range.
Again I maintain that any caliber must have the proper bullet for the game hunted at the proper velocity for that bullet to be effective. And don't forget about shot placement.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second response:
Just as a point of reference, a .45-70 loaded to higher pressures (35 ksi) with a 500+ gr solid will penetrate substantially deeper than a .375 H&H loaded with a 300 gr solid (50+ inches vs 40 inches), and make a larger hole while doing it. The same is true if loaded with proper softpoints. Now, it doesn't have as much KE, but it can make a bigger hole without it. So, what kills a buffalo? The stamp on the barrel or the hole through its guts?
The Taylor KO calculation has nothing whatsoever to do with "killing power" - that from the man himself (read his book). In my opinion it has nothing whatsoever to do with anything at all, because its a made up formula based on whimsy, not science.
Opinions are fine for sitting about, beer in hand, discussing whatever, but opinion doesn't constitute fact - no matter how prevalent. The 500 gr / 2150 fps formula was arrived at by chance. That was what you got when you took the current crop of blackpowder cases and loaded them with the new smokeless powder to the pressure level they could handle with temperature sensitive powder in old style weapons.
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
Stranger,

I understand and appreciate that, but my point is these folks seem to think it's ego driven only if you don't use one of their howitzers, thus making it a "stunt". Not interested in the psychology of it or judgement therein, but the dishonesty obviously irritates me. Obviously not one of my mellower days, think I need to get out to the range this afternoon and kill a man-eating piece of paper.

I apologize if the "ego" comments appeared judgmental in any way, not intended. I sure am not trying to get this discussion into the arena of psycology, and yes, I'm a meat eater. In fact I'm are realitively proficient meat eater!

Dan



<!--EDIT|DOK|May 10 2002,09:06-->
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
The 45-70 has another supporter, and this one is a PH in Africa. The "Meplats" that is referenced is a rather obnoxious character that basically wouldn't spit on a "pumpkin roller" like the 45-70. But so far, he doesn't offer data, experiment or experience. This PH touches on one of the major points we've previously discussed, the ability to handle the rifle cartridge and shot placement.

Dan

"I cannot beleive that this thread has become so personal. I have always beleived that we are here on these forums to learn from each other and also to offer advise to those that seek it.

MEPLATS : May I ask, and ask with respect, how many buffalo have you shot and if any, with what?

I do not recall any buffalo that could read the "knock down" factors etc. I have many clients shoot buffalo with 45/70 in mainly Marlin 1895SS and everyone of them had one shot kills. On the other hand I have had many clients using 460 Weatherbys that I as their PH have had to kill for them.

500grains : You say that a big problem with the levergun is that people tend to short stroke it thus causing jams. Well I have news for you, hunters when inexperienced not only short stroke on long action bolt actions but also on the short actions. I is all due to experience and nothing to do with the action or rifle.

Lets get back to what these forums are for and that is to help each other and to share in our experiences.

Straight shooting and good hunting.:



<!--EDIT|DOK|May 11 2002,12:06-->
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
All,

Just saw this on CNN news:
"A male lion bit the arm of a 21-year-old zookeeper Sunday at Busch Gardens, severing it at the elbow, park officials said.

The woman was escorting her family on a behind-the-scenes tour of the theme park, officials said.

The 12-year-old, 350-pound lion named Max attacked the woman through a bar-style fence and was never out of his secure area, said Capt. Bill Wade of the Tampa Fire Rescue.

The woman, whose name wasn't released, was flown with the severed limb to Tampa General Hospital by helicopter.

She is listed in serious condition, a hospital spokesman said. It was unclear if an attempt would be made to reattach the arm."

When I read something like this, it simply reaffirms what we're told.....that the strength of these animals is unbelievable.

Dan
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
Stranger,

One of the best recommendations (might be my only good one) is to read the experiences of Capstick, who has published a number of books on the subject of PHs and African hunting. His "Death in the Long Grass" was the first one I read and quickly followed up with four more Capstick books.

If memory serves me, Capstick indicated that some are tracked, but primarily they are baited.

Dan
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
One of the recommended references we got in our "Cast/Lever" discussion on the "African Big Game" site was "Bullet Penetration" from Internatinal Wound Ballistic Association (IWBA) by Duncan McPherson (the science behind Marty Fackler).  I looked the "IWBA" web site up this morning (http://www.iwba.com/index.html) and found it interesting. The available back issues of their semi-annual publication listed some very interesting "stuff".

Dan

International Wound Ballistics Association

The International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA) is an IRS 501©(3)non-profit scientific, educational, and public benefit California Corporation.
The IWBA is devoted to the medical and technical study of wound ballistics, including evaluation of literature in the field as well as encouraging and promoting new work in wound ballistics.

The WOUND BALLISTICS REVIEW is the Journal of the IWBA.  The Journal is published twice a year.
Memberships or Subscriptions are for two years.



<!--EDIT|DOK|May 13 2002,08:17-->
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
Alyeska338,

"Public perception is everything" sure is correct. One of the biggest disappointments I had professionally was that so many folks are just not analytical by nature. As an IT weanie, my folks had the responsibility for PC/Mainframe procurement/support. When I indicated that anyone wanting a new PC could have one, but was required to keep a log on how it was used to do things in a new and better way. 80% of the production managers who "just had to have another $500K of PCs" immediately indicated they didn't really need them.

You're sure correct, public perception is everything, and to a large degree it's because much of the general public is not analytical, and quite frankly, frequently intellectually lazy. That's why I enjoy this web site so much, these folks are interested and interesting and are involved in reviewing, modifying and finding the correct / best answer.

With that said, I have to leave to watch "Survivor"!

Dan



<!--EDIT|DOK|May 16 2002,16:58-->
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
Our discussions seem to concentrate, for logical reasons, on penetration. Certainly want to break, or at least penetrate bone, and reach the vital organs. But I also wonder about the ft./lb. impact on the animal other than penetration. Is the animal more inclined to be stopped or diverted when hit by 4000 .ft/lb. (416 Rigby) or 3000 .ft/lb. (.375Mag) if both penetrate the same depth? Is all that energy concentrated on the immediate wound channel, or even if it is, will the increased energy help destroy vital body parts/functions even thought there is no increased penetration?

There just seems to be a number stories of the game animal that is dead on it's feet, but doesn't know it, and gets to the aggressor. Is increased .ft/lbs. going to help in that case?

I'm sure many of us have read the articles about comparing smaller, higher velocity cartridges to larger, slower cartridges, both producing the same .ft/lb. of force. But the larger, slower pushes that big piece of steel a lot further. But that's the realm of the physicist, and I'd rather use that as a predictive tool, but prove it in the real world. As we all know, the the bumble bee can't fly and the 45-70 wouldn't do what Billy Dixon did.

Dan
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
Stranger's reference to "Sports Afield" magazine caught my eye, as the "Accurate Rifle" magazine I just got today said: "We read with regret in yesterday's financial news of the demise of "Sports Afield" magazine effective with the June issue. That publication was 115 years old, started in 1887 in Denver by Claude King."

"Accurate Rifle" also had the following "letter to the editor" from Randy Garrett (following is an short excerpt):

"....... When the average shooter sees our .44 Magnum Hammerheads deliver nearly twice the penetration of the .375H&H with 300gr. Nosler Partitions, they are usually speechless. When they see the penetration of the .45-70 with proper castings, they become aware that there is an entirely new world of performance that can be had by putting down one's long range, high velocity rifles, and picking up a lever-gun in an ancient caliber."

Said magazine issue also had the first of a 10 installment article on Elmer Keith by a gentleman that knew him well. Tomorrow (it's 9:30 and my bed time) I'll give a couple examples of a few of Elmer's shooting that's included in the first installment.

Dan



<!--EDIT|DOK|May 18 2002,19:38-->
 

· "Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
Joined
·
7,856 Posts
The Marlin web site has two threads going: "Big Bore Penetration Test. And the Winner is..." with 106 responses so far, and "Cast Bullets/Lever Action For Buffalo/Elephant" with 14 responses so far. The Cast Bullets/Lever Action for .... is a transplant of our thread over on the AccurateReloading site.

The Marlin address for the Big Bore Rifle option that contains both threads is: http://www.marlinfirearms.com/cgi-bin....tLogin=

Dan
 
1 - 20 of 179 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top