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Hunting dangerous game

31491 Views 178 Replies 45 Participants Last post by  James Gates
This is a continuation of sorts of the "Why Cast Bullets" thread...

Few of us will ever have the opportunity to hunt dangerous game (save our brethren in the 49th State). I can see myself stalking a cape buffalo or perhaps a lion in Africa but that adventure will likely be a safari of the imagination.

Still, we can dream can't we. In that light...

What rifle / caliber / load combo would you use to hunt dangerous african game?

Would it be nuts to assume that a Marlin 1895CB in 45-70 shooting 400g+ hard cast bullets at 1900+ fps would be appropriate for the job?
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That's great Dan! Thanks.
We got our first reply within 15 minutes.

Use the Search feature to check the archives, and you will find MANY discussions on this topic.
As for more and more PHs using 1895Gs as bakup, I think you will find that is a South African phenomenon. Damned few South African PHs have to stop charges by dangerous game; they may have to put bullets into fleeing game wounded by the client, so getting a lot of lead into the air quickly might be their priority, not stopping charging Cape buffalos."

Stranger, how about you taking a shot at doing the search (for which I'm embarrassed to have to be told)?  The web site is:

I'll take a shot at the search also, and hopefully others will also so we can make sure we find any pertinent information for our questions.

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Three more responses:

From Belgium:
A good compromised will be a powerful handgun cartridge in a lever like .475 Linebaugh  
But I don't know any lever wich can reach pressure of that rounds.
For me, best lever for Africa .450 and .500 Alaskan or a 50-110 lever.
a 465 gr bullet at 2035 fps with the .450 Alaskan lever gun
a 485 gr bullet at 2010 fps with the .500 Alaskan lever gun
With enough penetration for big five game animals.
I'll be more confident with my bolt action rifle in .450 Ackley mag.Just me personal choice.
From Utah:
"I've heard that more and more PHs are using 1895Gs as back ups. They cite the fast handling qualities and light weight as reasons."
Pure B.S. You won't find that in the hands of a PH who makes his living hunting dangerous game.
But it's fun to talk BS on websites.
From California:
I understand there are several PHs using these lever actions when hunting leopard with dogs but I can't imagine them using it for anything else.
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Fascinating thread...

The essence of what I'm reading from the other site is "the sharp shouldered, wide meplat of the 500g+ LBT or Keith style hard cast bullet in 45-70 does not offset the 400 fps velocity deficit as compared to a 500g (in 458 winmag, for example) rounded solid."

Most agree that the 45-70 is adequate under ideal circumstances and presentations but few indicated the round's ability to stop a charge and settle things at close (read: 10-15ft) range.

It's not a unanimous opinion but there seems to be general consensus. Interestingly, leverguns are praised for their handling characteristics and only the caliber and loads are questioned. Several have indicated strong appeal for the Wild West variants of the 1895 chambered in .457 winmag and .50 Alaskan.

I wonder if these thoughts also apply to the great bears?

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Excellent summary. I did a search on "cast bullet" and got 194 hits, and as Stranger indicated, it isn't cut and dried. We've had eight direct responses to our original post and there is noticable "warmth" in the idea of the hunter using an appropriate weapon that would not require a PH to back them up.

In any case, I would recommend that interested parties visit the referenced web site and do their own search.

Coldfingers is much more qualified than I on this topic.  An interesting thread indeed, but I would think if you polled Alaskan guides all over the state that hunted the big bears, I believe you will find more using the 458 Win Mag than anything else.  Least that is so with the guides I know personally.  Second place would probably be another over 40 like the 416 Rem Mag, 404 jeffery or 416 Rigby.  Coming in very close 3rd would be the 375 H&H.  What do most bear hunting guides recommend their clients use?  At least 338 Win Mag.  Every guide I know recommends this as a minimum.  I've never asked them about a 45/70, just what their minimum recommedation would be.  That's what they said.  No leading them, just their own personal opinion.  10 out of 10.

If my search summary of the various posts in "African Big Game Hunting" is correct, the most mentioned cartridge was the .458 Win. Mag. as the preferred item for cape buffalo/elephant.

To get a better appreciation for the .458 Win Mag, I did a quick search and found the following article. The author also covers the .460 Weatherby Mag which I have seen shot at our local range. I was on the pistol range and noticed a shooter on the rifle range shoot and then walk around for about 10/15 minutes. Shoot again and same walk.  I stopped on my way out and asked what he was shooting. He said .460 Weatherby Mag and showed me the shell that looked like my thumb. I asked, "What in the world do you shoot with that?" and he replied, "Moose."  That's how I developed my respect for Mr. Moose. This guy wasn't a real happy shooter. And I'd have to have the cape buffalo/bear really convince me they were serious before I'd want to shoot that rifle.


The .458 Winchester Magnum
& .460 Weatherby Magnum

By Chuck Hawks

.458 Winchester Magnum
The .458 Winchester Magnum is the most popular "elephant rifle" cartridge in the world. It was introduced in 1956; the first of the original series of three Winchester belted magnum cartridges for standard length actions. (The other two were the .264 Mag. and the .338 Mag.) It quickly established itself as a premier cartridge for thick-skinned dangerous game (elephant, rhino, and buffalo). The .458 appeared in a special version of the Model 70 bolt action rifle named the "African." I have heard that its immediate acceptance and popularity surprised even Winchester.

It was a time when air travel was beginning to allow affluent middle-class hunters from North America to embark on African safaris that only ten years earlier had been prohibitively expensive and time-consuming. In 1956, the year the .458 Mag. appeared, the introduction of the Douglas DC-7C airliner made possible reasonably affordable nonstop Trans-Atlantic air service in both directions. It was followed by the Lockheed Starliner, which entered Trans-Atlantic service in 1957. The Boeing 707 jetliner entered service in 1958, and the first Douglas commercial jetliner, the DC-8, entered service in 1959. The .458 Win. Mag. turned out to be the right cartridge at the right time.

The ballistic performance of the .458 Win. Mag. was based very closely on that of the pioneering British Nitro Express big bore cartridge, the .450 Nitro Express, and its popular successor the .470 Nitro Express. The .470 Nitro Express had became the most popular of all the British elephant rifle cartridges. As originally loaded with cordite (British smokeless) powder, it drove a 500 grain bullet at a MV of 2,125 fps for a ME of 5,030 ft. lbs. Performance on thick-skinned dangerous game was, and is, excellent.

This was the baseline the .458 Win. was designed to match, and Winchester's original .458 factory loads were exactly the same as above. Recoil from the .458 Magnum is terrific, of course. About 65 ft. lbs. of recoil energy from the 500 grain bullet at 2,125 fps in a 9.5 pound rifle.

The main drawback to any of the Nitro Express cartridges is their length. They were designed for break action double rifles, not repeaters. And new double rifles are prohibitively expensive for all but the very rich, which is where the .458 Win. Mag. comes in.

The .458 works through standard length bolt action rifles, and duplicates the traditional ballistics of the .470 N.E. Several manufacturers chamber their bolt action rifles for the .458 Magnum, including Remington, Ruger, Savage, and Winchester. It is also chambered in modern single shot rifles, like the elegant Ruger No. 1H Tropical Rifle.

Reloaders have their choice of 300, 350, 400, and 500 grain .458" bullets in soft point, controlled expansion, and solid (full metal jacket) types. Top reloads run 2,100-2,200 fps with 500 grain bullets. Maximum permissible pressure for the .458 Mag is 53,000 cup.

In the U.S. .458 Mag. factory loads are available from A-Square, Federal, Hornady, Norma, Remington, Speer and Winchester. Bullet weights run from 350-510 grains in both expanding and non-expanding (solid) types. .458 Mag. ammunition is manufactured and distributed world wide.

Federal offers a Premium Safari 350 grain soft point bullet (SD .238) at a MV of 2,470 fps and a ME of 4,740 ft. lbs. The figures at 100 yards are 1,990 fps and 3,065 ft. lbs. This load is primarily for hunters wishing to use their .458's on large North American game.

Another Federal Premium Safari load is a 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (controlled expansion) bullet at a MV of 2,380 fps and a ME of 5,030 ft. lbs. That ought to stop the biggest Alaskan brown bear or African lion that ever lived.

Federal's Premium Safari line also has a couple of 500 grain controlled expansion type bullets, and a 500 grain solid. All of these are loaded to a MV of 2,090 fps and a ME of 4,850 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 1,870 fps and 3,880 ft. lbs. The solid is the ticket for breaking down thick-skinned dangerous game like elephant, rhino, and Cape buffalo.

The Federal Premium Safari 510 gr. soft point bullet, a traditional load for the .458, has a MV of 2,090 fps and a ME of 4,895 ft. lbs. The figures at 100 yards are 1,820 fps and 3,730 ft. lbs. This load has always been regarded as a "stopper" for thin-skinned dangerous game like lion and tiger, or heart/lung shots on buffalo. The Winchester 510 gr. Super-X load, at a MV of 2,040 fps, is similar.

Remington, in their Premier Safari Grade line, offers a 450 grain Swift A-Frame (partitioned) bullet at a MV of 2,150 fps and a ME of 4,618 ft. lbs. The figures at 100 yards are 1,901 fps and 3,609 ft. lbs. This ought to make a pretty good general purpose load for the .458 Win. Mag.

None of the .458 Mag. loads are suited to long range shooting. Typical trajectory for a 500-510 grain factory load zeroed at 100 yards shows an 8.5" to 9" drop at 200 yards. The .458 is about a 150 yard big game cartridge.

The flattest shooting of all the factory loads is the Remington 450 grain A-Frame bullet. Its trajectory looks like this: +1.8" at 100 yards, 0" at 150 yards, and -4.6" at 200 yards. It makes the .458 about a 200 yard big game cartridge. At 200 yards that bullet retains 2,789 ft. lbs. of energy, slightly less than the best loads for the .338 Win. Mag. and the .375 H&H Mag. at that range.

.460 Weatherby Magnum
The big .460 Weatherby Magnum is based on the .378 Weatherby case necked up to accept .458" bullets, the same bullets used by the .458 Win. Mag. It was introduced in 1958, no doubt in response to the unexpected popularity of Winchester's .458 Mag.

Weatherby's ultimate magnum had to be spectacular, and the .460 is. Weatherby factory loads launch a 500 grain bullet at 2,600 fps with 7,504 ft. lbs. of energy. At the time of its introduction it was alleged to be the most powerful big game cartridge in the world, a claim disputed, by the way, by proponents of the .600 Nitro Express. Regardless, the .460 Wby. Mag. is one powerful cartridge. Just the thing to have if a T-Rex comes calling.

Handloaders can push a 300 grain bullet to over 3,000 fps, a 350 grain bullet to about 2,950 fps, a 400 grain bullet to over 2,750 fps, and a 500 grain bullet to about 2,650 fps. Why anyone would want to do so is beside the point--like Mount Everest, the .460 Wby. Mag. is there.

It takes real nerve to touch off a round from a .460 Weatherby rifle. The Weatherby Mark V rifle in this caliber has a 26" barrel and weighs 10.5 pounds. Fire a 500 grain bullet at 2,650 fps and you are going to have to deal with 109.7 ft. lbs. of recoil energy!

Weatherby factory loads offer a 450 grain Barnes-X bullet at 2,700 fps and 7,248 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. Also 500 grain soft point and FMJ bullets, both at 2,600 fps and 7,504 ft. lbs. of ME. The only other company to load .460 ammo is A-Square, who offers a 500 grain "Triad" bullet at 2,580 fps and 7,389 ft. lbs. of ME.

Ballistics tables show that if the 500 grain Weatherby factory loads are zeroed at 200 yards, the bullet will strike about 2.5" high at 100 yards and 11" low at 300 yards. For those few who can shoot it accurately, the .460 is a 250+ yard big game cartridge.

<!--EDIT|DOK|May 07 2002,20:03-->
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I agree with you and I don't have a 458, but... that is what most of the bear guides carry that I know.  That is what they are comfortable with.

I would not hesitate to take a 45/70, 338/06, 444 marlin or any other caliber of that class into the bear's den.  But the folks that make their living protecting hunters in the thick and nasty alder, devil's club and willow thickets choose the 458.  I haven't ask them if they would carry any of these others, but when they bought their rifle that their lives depended on, they went for something else.  All are satisfied with their choice, as none of these guys are new to the business and have had ample opportunity to get something else.  Ed Stevenson (Master Guide at Sheep Mountain) uses a 1895 Winchester rechambered to the 411 Hawk.  He's the exception.
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The following is an example of .458 Win Mag discussion from the "African Big Game Hunting" category,


Super Member
Posts: 399
From: Rural Wa. State, part time Ellisrass South Africa
Registered: Mar 2001
 posted 05-04-2002 02<!--emo&:0--><img src="" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->4                
Andrea, one of the best studies done in the recent past is available from
Mike Lagrange shot about 10,000 buffalo, and elephant with all sorts of guns. He then made an exhaustive study of the same guns by shooting into giant blocks of wax. He came to some very opinionated views. Worth while reading for anyone interested. His book is titled "Ballistic's in Perspective"

It seems there is never enough time to do things right, but always enough time to do them over

[This message has been edited by JJHACK (edited 05-04-2002).]

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Super Member
Posts: 611
From: Texas USA
Registered: May 2001
 posted 05-04-2002 02:29                
Sounds like an interesting book, I hadn't heard of it before. I will get a copy, but can you summarize the conclusions? Let me guess, medium speed, heavy weight, big diameter, tough bullets, kill best?

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Super Member
Posts: 399
From: Rural Wa. State, part time Ellisrass South Africa
Registered: Mar 2001
 posted 05-04-2002 04:51                
Kinda like giving away the end of a movie Eh?
He says given all the choices he has and considering everthing he would choose a 458 Win Mag properly loaded.

"2130 ft/sec in the 458 Win with 500 grain bullets has made a a caliber which had become inadequate into one that is now totally
"The 460 Short A-Square fires the same bullet at 2300 ft/sec and has phenomenal penetration, better than any other I have

His data regarding the bizzare problems with higher velocity are also amusing. Sorry if I ruined it but the details are still worth the read.jj
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I have not seen such a rucus since the old 44vs45 thread ;*)

I have to admit that my input is pretty limited since our scrawny little interior bears cannot hold a candle to the fish eating bruisers in the more temperate zones of Alaska.

There is certainly some interesting info coming out pertaining to the real big boys of the big bore rifles.  I think that if I was ever to guide for Brown Bear, I would have to re-consider my choice in rifles, but, the chances of that are pretty slim.

As it is, Alyeska has been on top of things pertainting to guides choices in AK.

I do remain pretty well convinced that the Marlins are up to the task, but, they may never catch on since the precedence is well set.

The old "if it aint broke, don't fix it" rule may keep it that way.

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Hopefully, interested parties will seek out the responses on the "Accuratereloading Forum" site where we've asked about cast/lever usage on African big game.

Because of several trends in the current responses, I've posted the following comment/response:

"The responses have several common underlying treads, one of which is excellently conveyed by LE270’s comment:

“Why would you want to use such rifles and bullets? I think they are unsporting for such purposes. I think that the one-shot kill should always be the goal, although it is admittedly not always attainable.”

The question of cast/lever was intended to be an “honest” question based on various inputs.  We have read, as Peter pointed out, the Linebaugh penetration tests that appear to support the hard cast bullets capability for significant penetration. And as Rusty Gun pointed out, it’s the bullet, not the rifle – and the lever action rifles current available handle 400+ gr. hard cast bullets in the 1900/2000 fps level (reference “Accurate Rifle, May 02, “Heavy, Heavy Cast-Bullet Loads in the 450 Marlin).

We also agree that one should not ask, “What is the minimum?” But should ask, “What is the best?” But one of the major considerations that come into play is the ability to handle the rifle/cartridge combination and thus improved shot placement probability. We understand shot placement to be critical. So, the intent is not to be cruel and unfeeling about the creature on the other end, but to sort through the emotion and traditions based inputs and find the best working combination.  Obviously at some point, the bullet/rifle combination a person can handle adequately may well be inadequate and/or as Atkinson puts it, a stunt. At that point, the line must be drawn.  We’re honestly looking for that line so as to not cross it.

One basic consideration that we cast/lever shooters must seriously address that you folks have correctly identified is the question of, “Can the bullet/rifle combination handle a charge/worst possible condition?”  We appreciate the input that the hunter should be as responsible as possible for the response to “worse possible conditions” and not assume it’s the PH’s job.

Thanks again for the time and excellent insights.

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You hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned.  I would have to think that the PH would want, first and foremost, a client to have a gun/cartridge that the client could accurately shoot!  Not only for the first critical shot, but for any fast/furious lead-slinging that may happen if things don't go as planned.  After all, in a charge the hunter may have the opportunity to help settle things, as well as the PH.

The PH should be selecting their arms on the same basis, but logically, we might assume they can handle more firepower.  If so, great.  But for the average hunter, things are going to go a LOT more smoothly if they show up with a .338, or even .30-06, that they can handle, vs. a .458 that they are afraid of.  Heck, my .35 Rem through a leopard's shoulders beats the heck out of missing with ANYTHING!

A .45-70 through the shoulder/lung area is much more sporting than a .458 Win Mag through the guts... and frankly, anyone who doubts the effectiveness of hard cast bullets probably hasn't tried them!  I have gotten several FEET of penetration.... from a HANDGUN.... now what sort of increase do I get when I add 100 grains of bullet weight and 800fps from a rifle?????  

The only game I think that I might be a little hesitant to shoot with a heavy cast bullet is an elephant, as I don't know that such a bullet would go through several feet of bone in an elephant's skull (it might but I don't know).  In that case I'd just dispense with conventional lead core bullets as well, and go for a 'monolithic' solid like the Barnes or A-Square.

As Scotty points out, a reluctance on changing what has been proven to work may be why the PH's are staying with .458/500gr. solids.  Frankly, if I had been a PH for years and had learned to use that combination, I'd be a little reluctant to experiment (bad environment to risk a mistake!).  I have also read that some PH's have gone to the Marlins for thin stuff like lions (which really aren't all that big in the scheme of things) but I can't remember where I read it.
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Would it also be appropriate to state a corollary that the circumstances in which the cast/lever combination would not be a very good choice are limited to cape buffalo, elephant, rhino, the great bears, and shots in excess of 150 yds?
Mike and DOK,
I think familiarity and ability to use a heavy rifle is one the guides are assuming (at least in our discussions).  Most guides will communicate with their clients several times in the months preceding the hunt and will make that a requirement.  No, they don't want someone to show up in camp with a brand new rifle that has just been shot enough to sight it in.  One thing you have to think about is that these are not supposition's (at least on the guide's end).  This is what they use and what they are comfortable with.  As James Gates would say, gutpile analysis.  That isn't saying that other rounds won't suffice, maybe they will, but these guys are betting their life and their client's life.  I would go for a sure thing too.  Would you rather have a guide toting a bare minimum rifle in an alder thicket where visibility is measured in feet and the quarry has teeth and claw and is a carnivore, or would prefer to see some round that has proven itself worldwide as fully capable of stopping charges RIGHT NOW the first time, every time?  I would hesitate to hunt Cape Suckling, or other areas that are similar in vegetation and topography with someone backing me up if both of us were carrying 30/06's.  That's a personal opinion, but I'd feel much more comfortable if one of us was carrying a true "heavy" rifle.  I don't just want to kill a charging bear, I want to stop it where it is when the trigger is pulled.  I've seen some big bears killed and they take a lot of punishment.  Alaska's colorful history is littered with many stories of folks who did not use enough gun and didn't live to tell about it.

Hunting dangerous game is one thing, sneaking into rifle range of an unsuspecting animal is a completely different ball of wax than stopping an animal that has (in it's fight or flight response) made the decision to fight.  When the fight response (a true full bore charge) is made, the bear is going to kill or be killed.  The only way to stop it is to put it completely out of commission.  That does not mean hitting it in soft tissue, it means breaking it down completely where it cannot move.  There is one hunt a couple of years ago on the Alaska Peninsula where a bear (unsuspecting) was hit with 250 gr Nosler Partitions fired from a 340 Wby.  The hunter emptied the rifle into the bear before it got to him.  Yep, he killed the bear alright, but not before it removed half of his scalp and BENT his rifle barrel nearly 90 degrees.

Having said all of that, I, as a hunter would not hesitate to use a 45/70 properly loaded.  If I was contracting a guide and hunting in the thick and nasty stuff which had I rather see, a well used 45/70 or a well used 458?  No contest, I'd rather see the 458.
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Did you say "coronary" or "corollary"?

I can only say I'd pick a .375 minimum and preferably a .416 (or bigger if I could handle the recoil). But the same question haunts that comment .... in that shot placement and handling ability must be given some consideration. Nobody has said a 45-70 405gr hard cast, if well placed, would not stop African big game.

My corollary would be to thoroughly consider all aspects, pick the biggest, baddest thing you can handle and talk/communicate with your PH in detail. And if your biggest, baddest thing isn't adequate, then stay home -- or come shoot rabbits in Iowa. I think it's a judgment call, not an algrebaic formula.

What a great thread.

I see that we are now arriving at the "fine line"...that point of "just how much can you handle WELL!

I had the pleasure of sitting with a fella from Kodiak who specialized in the Big Bears. There was alot of info put forth, and some just frittered it's way out of my head, but a few things stuck.

He was VERY adament about having a client use a well worn 30.06 or 7Mag rather than have same client purchase a GompStomper for the hunt. He was also quite insistant on not having a shot taken untill everything was perfect and the deck stacked in favor of exact placement with plenty of clear area for the follow up shots...He insisted that after the first shot, everyone shot till the bear was anchored, and then they shot some more.

I can fully agree with DOKs points about using a big enough gun, and perhaps working till you can handle something bigger with confidence.

I find that for myself, the Marlin meets my needs.  Having been a stick slinger all my life, I find myslef not even considering a shot till I can almost pinch the critter to see how tender it is. At those ranges, the 45/70 will make a hole and break a few bones doing so. Since it is my only big game rifle, and I use it for little critters also, I am fairly confident of the outcome when I drop the hammer.
The 45/70 is a bear stopper with proper loadings.

In a nutshell, I would hunt dangerous game with it in all confidence. I would expect the PH to use what he thought best. Since the desire to kill an elephant or rino has never come upon me, I see no reason to upgrade.

It is a fun point to ponder though!


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Alyeska, you prompted another question...

You said "but these guys are betting their life and their client's life." Do we have any idea just how dangerous dangerous game hunting is, not just 100 years ago but, let's say, in the last ten years?  Is it anymore dangerous to PH and client, on average, than "ordinary" hunting injuries due to falls, exposure, scrapes, cuts, bites, stings, etc.? I would be incredibly dissappointed if the facts demstyified or failed to support the romantic notion of the dangerous safari.
Stranger, I can't remember where I read it, but a year or so ago read an article that included all injuries while hunting and the number one life threatening injury was falling from a tree stand.  I'm sure that led non-fatal injuries also.  Flying to and from your hunting locale is probably the most dangerous part of hunting in Alaska, followed closely by hypothermia (not being prepared for extended stays), and stream crossings.  I always read about more hurt or dead hunters in flying accidents than from bear attacks.

Sorry to disappoint, looks like Whitetail deer hunting is the most dangerous of all....

In Alaska, I'd say weather, inaccessibility and topography are greater dangers than the critters that are hunted.  Lots of snowmachine breakdowns in the middle of winter miles from the nearest village, cold and wet weather, bad flying conditions, getting lost, boats breaking down or sinking, breaking a leg with no way to get help, etc... are all very real dangers and should not be taken lightly.  Newspapers up here are full of those stories each and every year.

<!--EDIT|alyeska338|May 08 2002,10:39-->
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Hey, in case you though or expected the responses on the other web site to be instructive, here's one we just got:

Super Member
Posts: 40
From: East USA
Registered: Jul 2001
 posted 05-08-2002 22:26                
"There is no use to discuss this subject as I see it. We all know the 45/70 is not capable of much. It is a low velocity round with medium to heavy bullets with a trajectory that is like heaving a large rock by a 5 yr old. Many more powerful cartridges are available for any purpose we need to put them to. I for one agree with Atkinson on everything he says about the 45/70. Basically a has been in the realm of big game cartridges. If people would quit trying to turn it into a big game cartridge and use it instead for small Whitetail deer and such it would not suffer the derogatory status it has on this forum and people would maybe eventually quit whining about it and it would have a quite passing death. RIP 45/70 you are a weak brother in the brotherhood of the powerful giants."

I responded that I apologized for affronting his intellectual sensitivities but that we were not whining. It will be interesting to see what his response will be. I may need to get a bigger gun!


<!--EDIT|DOK|May 08 2002,14:12-->
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Yikes! Two myths shattered!

First... hunting Bambi is more dangerous than hunting M'bogo.

Second... the lowly 45/70 is a useless cartidge that's on a par with throwing rocks.
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