Hunting dangerous game

There isn't one clear answer to cover hunters' preferences, but there are a couple of shades of doubt that are hard to overcome when "Dangerous Game" and personal safety are discussed:

- Leverguns are entirely American and untried and untested by Europeans and Africans.  

- 45/70s have only been "powerful" since the '70s and in any number the last 10 or so years, so awareness and understanding of the capabilities is still relatively low, only emerging lately in the US.

- a $400 rifle designed for the US deer/elk hunting market is not "well positioned" for dangerous game in people's minds.  These hunts often run $10Ks and getting 'the right gun' is not an obstacle.   PHs in Teddy's time looked at his 1895s as cheap, mass produced contraptions, (as were magazine rifles)and that sentiment may still have roots.  Double guns were "purpose-built".

- There are lots of adequate, proven alternatives.  

-  45/70 is a bit less powerful than the .458, a cartridge noted for its own set of old controversies.

Doubts such as these -- real or imagined -- should not have a home when you're considering each step and every movement very carefully in a potentially threatened situation.

Just to keep the pot boiling: This info was lifted from  Fr. Frogs Home Page

The following are taken from the regulations in place in Rhodesia.
Minimum requirements
Part A - Thick skinned, dangerous game [Buff, elephant, hippo] requires a 9.3mm bullet (.362") or greater diameter bullet with not less than 5.3
kilojoules (3,909 ft-lbs) muzzle energy; [Yes, I've noticed. Only a fool hunts buff with a ".375." Maybe they are trying to kill off the Yankee tourists
but at least they realize you need some kind of a "real" gun for the bad boys!]

Part B - Thin skinned, dangerous and heavy game [eland, giraffe, lion] requires not less than 7mm (.275") diameter bullet with not less than 4.3
KJ (3,172 ft-lbs) muzzle energy;

Part C - General big game [up to wildebeest and zebra, say 600-800 lbs] requires not less than 7mm (.275") bullet diameter with not less than 3.0
KJ (2,213 ft-lbs) muzzle energy;

Part D - Light big game requires a bullet at least 5.6 mm (.220") and 850 Joules (627 ft-lbs) muzzle energy.

The 45-70 has another supporter, and this one is a PH in Africa. The "Meplats" that is referenced is a rather obnoxious character that basically wouldn't spit on a "pumpkin roller" like the 45-70. But so far, he doesn't offer data, experiment or experience. This PH touches on one of the major points we've previously discussed, the ability to handle the rifle cartridge and shot placement.

Dan

"I cannot beleive that this thread has become so personal. I have always beleived that we are here on these forums to learn from each other and also to offer advise to those that seek it.

MEPLATS : May I ask, and ask with respect, how many buffalo have you shot and if any, with what?

I do not recall any buffalo that could read the "knock down" factors etc. I have many clients shoot buffalo with 45/70 in mainly Marlin 1895SS and everyone of them had one shot kills. On the other hand I have had many clients using 460 Weatherbys that I as their PH have had to kill for them.

500grains : You say that a big problem with the levergun is that people tend to short stroke it thus causing jams. Well I have news for you, hunters when inexperienced not only short stroke on long action bolt actions but also on the short actions. I is all due to experience and nothing to do with the action or rifle.

Lets get back to what these forums are for and that is to help each other and to share in our experiences.

Straight shooting and good hunting.:



<!--EDIT|DOK|May 11 2002,12:06-->

The Armistace Day blizzard was lodged deep in the minds of the men that ushered me into manhood back in rural Minnesota.

I almost paid a similar price when I took my two young boys on a mid season moose hunt years ago. We put the canoe in at our dropoff point with a small snow flurry going on. Everything was green and the leaves had not turned on the birch trees yet. I gave no thought to the snow.

The little river we were planning to float was a two day trip to home but there were no pullouts...once you start, you are committed. By the time we made camp, there was a dusting of snow, but it just kept getting heavier. As it got worse, the birches began to collapse under the laod, our tarp was sagging and required constant attention. Morning found the canoe filled with snow and water, and over a foot on the ground. It kept it up for two days with a final tally at over two feet. It took us three days to negotiate that nasty little crick.

Hypothermia was a constant threat, and it was all I could do to keep my kids alive and myself in condition to do so.

That was a wet, miserable, life threatening trip...similar to Gilligans "Three hour cruise" and all within a 15 mile crow flight from the house (some of our rivers meander for miles and never go anywhere&#33<!--emo&--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''><!--endemo-->

I now have a tendency to "pack a bit heavy"

Aint it fun learnin?

Scotty

All,

Just saw this on CNN news:
"A male lion bit the arm of a 21-year-old zookeeper Sunday at Busch Gardens, severing it at the elbow, park officials said.

The woman was escorting her family on a behind-the-scenes tour of the theme park, officials said.

The 12-year-old, 350-pound lion named Max attacked the woman through a bar-style fence and was never out of his secure area, said Capt. Bill Wade of the Tampa Fire Rescue.

The woman, whose name wasn't released, was flown with the severed limb to Tampa General Hospital by helicopter.

She is listed in serious condition, a hospital spokesman said. It was unclear if an attempt would be made to reattach the arm."

When I read something like this, it simply reaffirms what we're told.....that the strength of these animals is unbelievable.

Dan

One of the recommended references we got in our "Cast/Lever" discussion on the "African Big Game" site was "Bullet Penetration" from Internatinal Wound Ballistic Association (IWBA) by Duncan McPherson (the science behind Marty Fackler).  I looked the "IWBA" web site up this morning (http://www.iwba.com/index.html) and found it interesting. The available back issues of their semi-annual publication listed some very interesting "stuff".

Dan

International Wound Ballistics Association

The International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA) is an IRS 501©(3)non-profit scientific, educational, and public benefit California Corporation.
The IWBA is devoted to the medical and technical study of wound ballistics, including evaluation of literature in the field as well as encouraging and promoting new work in wound ballistics.

The WOUND BALLISTICS REVIEW is the Journal of the IWBA.  The Journal is published twice a year.
Memberships or Subscriptions are for two years.



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