Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

I am a Newby who has enjoyed reading this forum to the point I decided to get into reloading.

Have been reloading for about a year and have a few good loads. Right now enjoying my load of 44.5 grains Imr 4064 for 168 gr match in .308. I am getting around 2797 Fps and shooting out to 1000 yards.

However I live in Florida and it can get quite hot here and was told Varget can handle heat changes better. Does anyone have experience using this powder and could recommend a close recipe to use the Varget when Imr is not available? Thanks in advance!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,881 Posts
You know, Shooter, Florida does not have real high and low spikes in temperature, and that performance with 168 gr is very good. IMR 4064 is a stable powder and I would not bother too much.

So-called "temperature insensitive" powders suddenly are all the rage now and all kinds of tests are being run by gun writers on them. Maybe that is why RL 17, 19 and 22 last year disappeared to be replaced by RL 23 and others.

Before the new fad no one ran tests, we always in any case tried to keep target loads in a wooden box with a lid, did we not, and never suffered any off-the paper shots.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Oldshooter55

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,072 Posts
Those two, along with W748 are like a hand with three aces of different suites! They are so similar that, especially with 4064 and Varget, the recommended charges are sometimes the same! I have been using IMR4064 for 40 years in the 30-06, and liked it well enough that I've stayed with it,---Until the recent shortages! Now, after having tried Varget in 30-06, I can say that I'm equally happy with it. Not so much with W748, as the pressures were right up there with listed loads! As to one being less or more temperature sensitive, I've not noticed any difference, although the hype is for Varget. By the way, welcome, and I live in Florida too!
 

·
The Shadow (Super Mod)
Joined
·
7,331 Posts
The boys have you steered straight on this one.
MOST of "problems" with something being sensitive, is from getting cooked in a very hot chamber, or being left in the sun on the dash.
Varget was designed around the 145-150 class bullets in the 308.

I shoot my 308 to a mile here in the desert portion of Washington(Yes, we do have a desert). We have been over 100 for a month now, I use 748 for my long range loads. If the 4064 well hadn't run dry many years ago, I would have stayed with it.

Say this with your heaviest mississippi drawl: "If it ain't broke, don't try fixin it"
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,191 Posts
I read that AR2208 (Varget, here) was actually ADI's attempt to develop a target powder specifically to compete with IMR4064, but add in their temperature stabilization technology. Hodgdon got interested in it before they took over distributing IMR when they didn't have a direct competitor for 4064. I've used Varget to good effect in .30-06 and .308 with 175 grain SMK's. When Federal developed the Mk. 316 mod.0 sniper cartridge using the 175, they dropped Reloader 15 loaded in M118LR with that bullet because of reports of temperature spikes in desert temperatures, and went to 4064, which didn't have them.

What is interesting is to look at changes in velocity with changes in charge weight. Dave Milosovich had an experiment in the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide in which he loaded a 180 grain bullet in .308 using both 4895 and 4064 to matching muzzle velocity. At 2200 fps, it took less 4064 than 4895. At 2400 fps the charge weights were about equal. At 2500 and 2550 fps, it took more 4064 than 4895. In other words, it took a bigger change in the amount of 4064 to produce the same peak pressure change. Since the velocity per grain curve rounds off and is flatter at full chamber pressure for 4064, it means it is more immune to charge error, temperature change, or other sources of velocity and pressure error than 4895 is. If you use Hodgdon's load data you can see it is slightly better by looking at ft/s/grain at top and bottom loads. But for Varget, it is even fewer ft/s/grain. Even better immunity. That's what makes it an interesting target load powder. The main drawback is just that maximum velocity is also limited by this effect.

As Darkker said, barrel temperature matters a lot more. Who the temperature insensitive property is most important to is a hunter firing from a cold gun who may go from cold conditions up a mountain to hot direct sun conditions with the same load at the foot of the mountain. As long as you are firing out of a cold gun, that immunity to temperature is important. Once you start heating a barrel, it doesn't help you as much. You can read Denton Bramwell's experiment with it here.

Oldshooter55,

I am surprised to hear you shoot 168's to 1000 yards if they are one of the standard tangent ogive, 13° boattail designs. All my experiences with them (the Sierra's, specifically) reflect Bryan Litz's observation that they have a dynamic instability in the transonic region. For me, the two times I've tried to get them past 700 yards, they've started tumbling. Both times I was shooting in significant side winds, though. I've heard of a few people getting them out to long range, but nobody remembers the wind conditions, so I am curious what conditions you've shot them under at that range? Note that the problem apparently stems from the 13° boattail common on 168 grain tangent ogive match bullet shapes. The 175 grain SMK with 9° boattail doesn't have that problem. I don't know that the new 168 grain tipped MatchKing or the 168 grain A-max with their secant ogives have this issue without trying them first. I don't know which bullet you are using.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
168 gr Hornady Match and Sierra Match.

I like the Hornadys better simply because I can get them in 250 per box. My actual yardage varies between 1040 and 1050 depending on which target I shoot. I have not seen the tumbling with these two rounds. I do have a -20 rail with a 24x Vortex Ebr-2c. (Love that scope).

Wind can be anything from low to 10-20 mph at my range location.

I really appreciate the feedback because around here there are few folks who have this hobby:)))
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
I have used Varget for 130 to 170 grain in my Marlin 30-30 lever. I think it is great stuff. I also live in Florida. I load in the house at about 75 degrees and shoot at about 95+ and lost of humidity.
Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,402 Posts
I've never been able to get Varget to out do IMR4064 in anything I've tried them both in?
As for availability?, I haven't sen a bottle of Varget in a couple of years now?, IMR4064 has been quite available around her for several months now.
If you don't have either?, maybe now is the time to switch over to IMR4166?, I have a feeling Hodgdon is going to use it to replace them both??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,853 Posts
I own three rifles in .308, where one of them shoots more accurately using 45.0 grain of H-Varget using Sierra's 150 grain SPBT bullet. With my other two .308 rifles, IMR-4064 is more accurate using 150 grain bullets. However all three of my .308's deliver excellent accuracy using WW-748 with a 150 grain bullet of any brand or type.:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,725 Posts
I found Varget to be superb for the M1 Garand and the '06. I found also that using a mag primer to work up your loads gave tighter ES and SD numbers than standard primers. That was because they did a better job of ignition with all the air space in the '06. The .308 doesn't have that problem, but the hotter primer may still help. Just remember to start low and work up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Oldshooter55

·
The Shadow (Super Mod)
Joined
·
7,331 Posts
maybe now is the time to switch over to IMR4166?, I have a feeling Hodgdon is going to use it to replace them both??
You have a question mark at the end of every single sentence, so I'm not sure if this is actually a question out loud, or you just like stating questions...

An interesting ponderance however. Unless importing from Quebec is easier than importing from Australia, not sure that would happen. Although the plant that produces them is north, perhaps General Dynamics being an American company makes things easier for Hodgdon to purchase consistently.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,881 Posts
Uncle Nick wrote:

"I am surprised to hear you shooting 168's to 1000 yards if they are one the standard tangent ogive, 13° boattail designs. All my experiences with them (the Sierra's, specifically) reflect Bryan Litz's observation that they have a dynamic instability in the transonic region. For me, the two times I've tried to get them past 700 yards, they've started tumbling. Both times I was shooting in significant side winds, though. I've heard of a few people getting them out to long range, but nobody remembers the wind conditions, so I am curious what conditions you've shot them under at that range? Note that the problem apparently stems from the 13° boattail common on 168 grain tangent ogive match bullet shapes. The 175 grain SMK with 9° boattail doesn't have that problem. I don't know that the new 168 grain tipped MatchKing or the 168 grain A-max with their secant ogives have this issue, either, without trying them first. I don't know which bullet you are using."

I have not read the comments by Brian Litz but agree that many boat tail designs with a noticeable curved ogive wil have two moments of instability: First as it decellarates through Mach 1.8 and then again down via Mach 0.9 (where the last local supersonic flows and shockwaves will cease. The transonic region for that design wil be between Mach 0.9 and Mach 1.2. The critical drag rise on such bullet design in any case will be higher than on a flatter ogive and sharp corner, short boat tail.

Depending on the elevation and temperature, Mach 1.8 is at about 700 yards with the .308W/168gr, and at 1000 yards it still is supersonic, so it never is in the transonic region unless it started out slower than standard.
 

·
The Shadow (Super Mod)
Joined
·
7,331 Posts
There was much very good work done by Dr. McCoy on tail angles and trans-sonic survival.
The original 168gr Match bullet had the 13 degree tail which, while lending to a sexy BC, was not conducive to trans-sonic survival; and had a Center of Gravity/Center of Pressure issue which all but guaranteed it to not cross safely.

McCoy's work showed that about a 9 degree tail angle was the best compromise for BC & survival.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SMK-1000plus

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
I've never been able to get Varget to out do IMR4064 in anything I've tried them both in?
As for availability?, I haven't sen a bottle of Varget in a couple of years now?, IMR4064 has been quite available around her for several months now.
If you don't have either?, maybe now is the time to switch over to IMR4166?, I have a feeling Hodgdon is going to use it to replace them both??
I recently bought a can of IMR4166. Haven't got to shoot it yet but doubt it will replace my two favorite powders, IMR 3031 and IMR4064for my. 308....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Great information being submitted on this thread! I would like to answer the second half of your post.
"Does anyone have experience using this powder and could recommend a close recipe to use the Varget when Imr is not available? " He is my pet load for my .308 Remington 700 SPS Varmint 26" heavy barrel 1/12 twist
Bell & Carlson tactical stock, bedded
Timney Calvin Elite trigger set at 8 oz.
20 MOA EGW Rail with SWFA SS 16X42 on top
I am only shooting this load out to 600 yards but am getting some nice sub MOA groups. Weather is usually in the upper 80's @ 464 altitude.
Winchester case trimmed 2.005
Federal 210M primer
43.0 Varget
168 Sierra MatchKing seated .020 off the lands
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Used varget for years when I was shooting high power very consistent. 155 palmar or the 175 Sierra are great bullets for 1000 yards. The 175 will stay super sonic out of an m1a with reasonable loads. The 175 will probably do better in the wind. Use Hodgson data and work up a load your rifle likes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
Ok, someone tell me more about this velocity region that 168s become instable at. Specifically, the mach 1.8 one. See I have this Krag load with 168gr Noslers. Shoots real good at 100yd, but is probably going only 2250fps. That means it'll go through that instability just before 200, where I'm going to be shooting the load at Camp Perry! Hate to change the game plan this late, but I wonder how much of effect this might have. I could use some 4064 to raise the velocity a bit. The load I'm using now is near max of a 4198 equivalent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,402 Posts
You have a question mark at the end of every single sentence, so I'm not sure if this is actually a question out loud, or you just like stating questions...
Just pondering out loud.


I recently bought a can of IMR4166. Haven't got to shoot it yet but doubt it will replace my two favorite powders, IMR 3031 and IMR4064for my. 308....
I have a pound of Varget I may never burn?, and several pounds of IMR 4064 so it'll be some time before I try IMR 4166.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Oldshooter55
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Top