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Discussion Starter #1
I'm still mailed tons of paper from the industry....most goes the file 13. Last week I got a mailing from IMR and browsed through it. There on page 52 is their data for .44 Mag in Rifles: Rem case-2 1/2 primer-Rem 240 SP-.430"-22" barrel-1.160"COL

SR 4759-21.0C-1630'/"-38500 cup...(not bad)
IMR 4227-23.5C-1680'/"-39500 cup..(good accurate load)
IMR 4198-25.5C-1515'/"-26400 cup..(whoa?)
IMR 3031-27.0C-1190'/"-18900 cup..(give me a break!)
IMR 4064-27.5C-1145'/"-16600 cup..(look at the barrel ports)
IMR 4895-28.0C-1225'/"-18300 cup..(ditto!)
IMR 4320-28.5C-1200'/"-20900 cup..(double ditto)
IMR 4350-27.0C-850'/"-13900 cup...( fire in the sky)
And !!!!!
IMR 4831-27.0C-720'/"-12500 cup...( firey 4th of July!!!)

There you have it Team!...and we "thought" we knew good powder burns!
Best Regards, James
(I don't know where this post should be? In the trash?...jcg)

(Edited by James Gates at 9:52 am on Mar. 1, 2001)
 

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Hi, Mr. Gates:
  The problem we have, after we've been around for a while, is that we forget we had to learn the basics ourselves. That's something I always try to remember when I'm teaching Hunter Safety to 11 and 12 year olds. The IMR manual does a good job of showing why one powder does not fit all cartridges. The .44 Magnum needs a fast rifle powder. Let's look at a condensed chart for the .30-30 with a 170 gr. bullet.

SR 4759-18.0-1605'/"-37300 cup..(can't fill the case)
IMR 4064-34.0C-2130'/"-38000 cup..(looking good)
IMR 4831-36.5C-1795'/"-25100 cup..(too slow)

  So we need a medium burning rate here. Let's try the 7mm Magnum with a 175 gr. bullet.

SR 4759-34.0-2220'/"-51200 cup..(can't fill the case)
IMR 4064-51.0-2645'/"-51500 cup..(still can't fill the case)
IMR 4831-63.0-2790'/"-52000 cup..(getting there)
IMR 7828-66.0-2910'/"-52000 cup..(now we're cooking!)

  We need a really slow powder here. I learned about burning rates by studying the DuPont 1966-67 handbook when I was a pup.

Bye
Jack
 

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Jack,

Just had to make an observation about the .30-30 and the slow burning powders... interestingly 4831 has given me some outstanding accuracy with cast bullets of 200+ grains in the .30-30.   the pressure curve is low, and very easy on the cast bullets, and the 200+ grain bullets create enough back-pressure for fairly clean burning, and the results beleive it or not are with ES into the single digits, and groups that look like hard-core bench-rest material... all out of lowly Marlin 336 leverguns!  

But, as you say, nothing like looking at the IMR reloader's guide for a quick lesson in powder burning rates and their correct applications... my oldest that I got as a pup is my 1973-74 guide... still punched and in it's three ring binder!

Got to go!

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Well......Let's think about this for a minute. What do you two see when you look at IMR data? Of course, you run down through the data and automatic pick out a balance volume of powder, burning rate, and pressure. You are experienced loaders! Without even thinking, you see one thing! But...what about the newbie, what does He see...well, he says, If IMR put it there, it must be "good" loads! So he's been told to buy IMR 4350 for his .30-06 with 180 gr bullets. He doesn't understand all the relationships that now are second nature to us. What's he do? He trys to put 27.0C grs in the .44 Mag case and use it. That's all I mean.
I too have tons of old loading books and the best was the old Lyman-Ideal! Their approach was like they were dealing with dummies, and we were.They explained everything in detail. I must admit I use loading manuals a small fraction of the time. The handiest thing I have in my loading room is a set of Lee Dippers, along with ones I have made. Boy, i can hear the uproar already! I saw my first set at a benchrest shoot. Most people don't even know what the weight variation at the factories are...3 full grains!!! and that's their best stuff loaded on machines that have been set to stroke slow! Well...I'm not going to get onto that. We must look at all this through the eyes of a newbie...and remember they think if it's printed it has to be right. For us, we see the relationships, they see all the loads as equal and good. Well...I supose by now I've p*%&#36#d off everyone...again! Best Regards,James
 

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James,

I can't believe any of us could disagree with what your saying. I've studied as much material as possible to try and learn the "secrets" of handloading. For someone who has basically taught himself using loading manuals and magazine articles from people I think are telling the truth, this can be a dangerous game.

I think now more than ever the powder companies are suggesting too many powders for any given cartridge. Who doesn't want to buy just one can of powder to load everything? The real question should be what powder is really best suited to what I want to make this cartridge do? Marshall's point about using 4831 to load heavy weight 30-30's is a great point. Sometimes if you need or want special results from your ammo, you have to take a different approach.

What should we really be doing and what tools and powder are really right for the job? Trying to learn about both firearms and reloading is difficult. For every one thing you read thats true you encounter six things that are based only on opinion and could be totally wrong. I consider myself lucky to have the forum to ask questions to and just to read the information here to keep on learning.

Best Regards
 
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