Well I am having trouble getting any groups with these iron sights. A little background, I qualified Expert every year in the Marines with my M-16A2. That course goes to 500 meteres. Those targets aren't for groups though. You just have to hit the black. But now I am trying to get a group out of these hunting leverguns and I cant do better then a 6 inch verticle string at 100 yds. So how does it work? I noticed that the bead caover about a 7-8" circle at 100yd. Do you guys just cover the whole target with your bead and let the bulets go somewere in that 8" circle? Or do you try and place the top of the bead were you want the bullet to stike? I was thinking of replaceing my beads with flat posts from Ashley so I can see my POI resting on the post. Thats the way I did it in the Marines, half a circle siting on the post. Thats about as accurate as you can get with iron sights I think. Having the intended POI rest directly on the tip of the post. Well help me out here please.
Iron sight technique
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What are you shooting now? Are you shooting off-hand or from a rest?
I've got an AO Sights ghost ring setup on my Marlin (broad white bar front sight and large aperture). Can't say enough good things about em.
But...
Although they're best for easy visibility in all lighting conditions and fast target aquisition, they're not target sights. I rest the exact intended point of impact (not the black bull) at the top of the bar.
I've got an AO Sights ghost ring setup on my Marlin (broad white bar front sight and large aperture). Can't say enough good things about em.
But...
Although they're best for easy visibility in all lighting conditions and fast target aquisition, they're not target sights. I rest the exact intended point of impact (not the black bull) at the top of the bar.
FA18CUB- Those Marlins usually have a sizeable front brass bead right? You will get all sorts of light tricks off that bead when trying to bear down on a target. First thing; blacken that bead with the flame from a lighter, candle, match or spray.
Second , use a 6 oclock hold on the bull. Some fellows prefer to have the bead and target touch, others like to leave a small consistent gap. The gap helps some people prevent losing the blackened bead in the solid black target which is a regular cause of vertical stringing.You will want your group also to be at six oclock unless you want a high sight in. Just remember that when you bear down on a deer you are likely to forget that point of impact is above the top edge of the bead instead of right behind it. Next, if you haven't already done it remove the rear open sight put in a slot filler and replace it with some form of receiver micrometer peep. When target shooting use the smallest eyepiece that lets you see the bull and front sight sharply. Those short barreled rifles have sights too close together for any one but the sharpest eyed individual. They're just fine for close range hunting but I certainly can't see them clearly enough to shoot groups. Also experiment with different diameter bullseyes. Often you will see and shoot better at a bigger bull (say 8" diam.) at 100 yards than you can at a smaller one. At the end of each group, not having shot the center out of the the bull. you can turn the target upside down and use it again. Then take one of your scoped super blasters and shoot the middle out of it. Let us know if any of this helps. besto.
Second , use a 6 oclock hold on the bull. Some fellows prefer to have the bead and target touch, others like to leave a small consistent gap. The gap helps some people prevent losing the blackened bead in the solid black target which is a regular cause of vertical stringing.You will want your group also to be at six oclock unless you want a high sight in. Just remember that when you bear down on a deer you are likely to forget that point of impact is above the top edge of the bead instead of right behind it. Next, if you haven't already done it remove the rear open sight put in a slot filler and replace it with some form of receiver micrometer peep. When target shooting use the smallest eyepiece that lets you see the bull and front sight sharply. Those short barreled rifles have sights too close together for any one but the sharpest eyed individual. They're just fine for close range hunting but I certainly can't see them clearly enough to shoot groups. Also experiment with different diameter bullseyes. Often you will see and shoot better at a bigger bull (say 8" diam.) at 100 yards than you can at a smaller one. At the end of each group, not having shot the center out of the the bull. you can turn the target upside down and use it again. Then take one of your scoped super blasters and shoot the middle out of it. Let us know if any of this helps. besto.
Another thought...
The reason that I rest the exact intended point of impact at the top of the bar (front sight blade) and not at 6 o'clock position of the black circle is because it is the same regardless of the size of the bull, the range (except holdover), or whether I'm shooting at paper vs. game animals.
BC is correct, however, that the 6 o'clock hold is preferred by target shooters where the bulls tend to be consistent in both size and range.
Lastly, the AO Sights front sight blade has a contrasty white bar set into the black blade making it extremely visible in all but pitch dark and against any background. This makes the dead center hold easier to accomplish without vertical stringing.
The reason that I rest the exact intended point of impact at the top of the bar (front sight blade) and not at 6 o'clock position of the black circle is because it is the same regardless of the size of the bull, the range (except holdover), or whether I'm shooting at paper vs. game animals.
BC is correct, however, that the 6 o'clock hold is preferred by target shooters where the bulls tend to be consistent in both size and range.
Lastly, the AO Sights front sight blade has a contrasty white bar set into the black blade making it extremely visible in all but pitch dark and against any background. This makes the dead center hold easier to accomplish without vertical stringing.
Shooting Win M-94s and Marlin 1895G, and now a Win. 1886. All have some type of receiver or tang peep sight. Williams and Marbles. I really like the Ashley white bladed front sight and am going to put those on all these guns. I am also favoring placing the POI right on the blade tip to allow for shooting at game at all ranges. Thanks.
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FA18CUB,
I see that you've just about decided to use the post front sight, and that should work for you. I like beads for hunting, myself. When target shooting, I use a 6:00 hold on a large bull and generally have the point of impact at the top of the bead, but truly I don't worry about the POI too much because I'm only shooting for group.
Then when it's time to go hunting I get out my trusty cardboard cuttout deer and put the bead exactly where I would hold on a critter and move the POI to hit the correct part of the animal. With the trajectory of my 30-30's, I can hold the bead directly on the chest of the animal and make a vital hit out to 200 yds, because the POI remains "within" the bead to that range. With my 20" M94 the bead pretty much covers the chest at 200yds, with the 24" barrel of my 336A there is still a little brown showing. But the principle is the same - put the bead on the chest and you will hit your target; if the bead is bigger than the deer it's too far. I still get real excited in the game field, so just being able to plaster that bead on the animal has been a great help.
I devoloped this method while shotgun and muzzleloader hunting back in Delaware. If I put the POI at the top of the front sight, I always had a tendency to shoot high on game. With the shotgun I used the same technique but the range limit was 100yds in order to keep the slug within the bead.
Just another idea to roll around. IDShooter
<!--EDIT|IDShooter|April 10 2002,11:06-->
I see that you've just about decided to use the post front sight, and that should work for you. I like beads for hunting, myself. When target shooting, I use a 6:00 hold on a large bull and generally have the point of impact at the top of the bead, but truly I don't worry about the POI too much because I'm only shooting for group.
Then when it's time to go hunting I get out my trusty cardboard cuttout deer and put the bead exactly where I would hold on a critter and move the POI to hit the correct part of the animal. With the trajectory of my 30-30's, I can hold the bead directly on the chest of the animal and make a vital hit out to 200 yds, because the POI remains "within" the bead to that range. With my 20" M94 the bead pretty much covers the chest at 200yds, with the 24" barrel of my 336A there is still a little brown showing. But the principle is the same - put the bead on the chest and you will hit your target; if the bead is bigger than the deer it's too far. I still get real excited in the game field, so just being able to plaster that bead on the animal has been a great help.
I devoloped this method while shotgun and muzzleloader hunting back in Delaware. If I put the POI at the top of the front sight, I always had a tendency to shoot high on game. With the shotgun I used the same technique but the range limit was 100yds in order to keep the slug within the bead.
Just another idea to roll around. IDShooter
<!--EDIT|IDShooter|April 10 2002,11:06-->
Whatever you do, be consistent and the groups should be there with a mote of practice, no matter how you hold.
6 o'clock hold works for a post, but I have to "think" to do it with a bead. For hunting, the white NECG bead and their peep are really pretty good. The bead is a little too big for fine target work, but it's very visible and centers really quickly for hunting purposes. The carbine/rifle No.1 points like a shotgun with it.
A target peep and a Lyman 17 (target) front will spoil you. Put the target in the front hole and it's almost as accurate as a scope. Very satisfying to sight well only using an ounce of steel.
6 o'clock hold works for a post, but I have to "think" to do it with a bead. For hunting, the white NECG bead and their peep are really pretty good. The bead is a little too big for fine target work, but it's very visible and centers really quickly for hunting purposes. The carbine/rifle No.1 points like a shotgun with it.
A target peep and a Lyman 17 (target) front will spoil you. Put the target in the front hole and it's almost as accurate as a scope. Very satisfying to sight well only using an ounce of steel.
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3,365 Posts
As mentioned before in this thread, target style and size can make a great deal of difference in your shooting as well. My favorite for irons at your ranges is this one:
<center>
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</center>
It's from our selection of printable targets found here:
<center>Beartooth Bullets Printable Targets</center>
It's amazing what those vertical crossbars can do to enhance iron sight shooting! Let the vertical bars be centered on your front sight. It really works! The same is true for handgun irons as well.
God Bless,
Marshall
<!--EDIT|Marshall Stanton|April 10 2002,15:54-->
<center>
It's from our selection of printable targets found here:
<center>Beartooth Bullets Printable Targets</center>
It's amazing what those vertical crossbars can do to enhance iron sight shooting! Let the vertical bars be centered on your front sight. It really works! The same is true for handgun irons as well.
God Bless,
Marshall
<!--EDIT|Marshall Stanton|April 10 2002,15:54-->
OOO!
Great targets!
I'm home from work, sick as a dog (she's sick too!<!--emo&
--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''><!--endemo-->, but I'm tempted to go the club's range now!
Lessee, how much could I shoot and still not get pneumonia?
Dang this virus cold!
It's the Taliban, I tell ya!
Great targets!
I'm home from work, sick as a dog (she's sick too!<!--emo&
--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''><!--endemo-->, but I'm tempted to go the club's range now!Lessee, how much could I shoot and still not get pneumonia?
Dang this virus cold!
It's the Taliban, I tell ya!
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572 Posts
FA18Cub,
I guess I am a creature of bad habit.
I never could stand the "bead" on my leverguns. If you couple that with being somewhat of a cheapskate...
My bad habit is that of taking off the front sight hood, grabbing a small mill file and making a proper post out of the thing.
Good shootin!
Scotty
I guess I am a creature of bad habit.
I never could stand the "bead" on my leverguns. If you couple that with being somewhat of a cheapskate...
My bad habit is that of taking off the front sight hood, grabbing a small mill file and making a proper post out of the thing.
Good shootin!
Scotty
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3,365 Posts
Scotty,
I'm glad that I'm not the only one fessing up to sacraficing a brass bead on the alter of practicality! I too take the bead off to make a proper post sight on a frequent basis. A mill file makes quick work, while some good quality cold blue covers the evidence!
God Bless,
Marshall
I'm glad that I'm not the only one fessing up to sacraficing a brass bead on the alter of practicality! I too take the bead off to make a proper post sight on a frequent basis. A mill file makes quick work, while some good quality cold blue covers the evidence!
God Bless,
Marshall
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572 Posts
Marshall,
My wifes greatest joy in life is rolling her eyes and snorting at me as I take something "new" and make it "improved"
All my best,
Scotty
My wifes greatest joy in life is rolling her eyes and snorting at me as I take something "new" and make it "improved"
All my best,
Scotty
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