[Im2Tall2Play2!]

A few weeks ago I came across a brick of CCI Standard Velocity 22LR's. So I snatched them.

Yesterday I tried them in my new Ruger Ceracoted (sp?) 22 single action, using my home built low carbon bullet trap. So after shooting I looked into the trap & found some bullet fragments that puzzled me. It almost looks like the bullets are jacketed!

What do you think?

 

[nsb]

They don’t look jacketed at all to me. I’m not aware of anyone making jacketed .22lr rimfire ammo. These pics, at least on my iPad just look like lead bullets.

 

[JBelk]

What does that bullet trap look like? It must be a 'snail body' to bend the bullets around like that. I see no jacket or copper wash.

 

[jimp]

What do other brands of bullets look like when pulled from the trap??

 

[Darkker]

Yesterday I tried them....using my home built low carbon bullet trap.

So after shooting I looked into the trap & found some bullet fragments that puzzled me. It almost looks like the bullets are jacketed!

🤔🤔🤔 So mild steel?

Those don't look anything like jackets, unless you mean lead jackets.😁
The only 22-call bullets which are actually jacketed, are for center-fire.


Cheers

 

[kdub]

What about 22 Mag ?

 

[Im2Tall2Play2!]

Belk, The bullet trap is a variation of the snail trap design. Mild steel because that is what I had. 45° back plate w/lengthwise sectioned pipe used to wrap the bullets around in the bottom so I don't have to use sand to trap the fragments like previous iterations. Sand is messy, dusty, & splashes everywhere!

Darkker, yeah, ¼" mild steel. Not planning to hit it w/true jacketed, nothing but low/mid speed speed lead. 22's & low speed .38 special WC's. & there are jacketed 17 & 22 rimfires, but WAY outta my league!

The question is because the fragments I saw were of the outside of the bullets, if you look at the close up of the single fragment showing the... can't be a cannalure, but looks like one, the core had stripped out of the outer shell, indicating to me the outside was much harder than the core. The inside of that shell shows the core had sheared/smeared as it proceeded forward thru the front of the bullet where it impacted the 45° from vertical back plate. I found no large pieces of the cores, it appeared the cores had hit, & gone forward to be fragmented (splashed?) into much smaller pieces. All the larger pieces were of the outer part of the bullets.

It makes absolutely NO sense to me that these lowly standard velocity bullets somehow have a much less ductile (tougher may be a better description) outer surface that would seperate on impact from a more ductile core! I don't get it. That is why I ask our experts. I have to ASSUME these are swaged from extruded lead alloy wire. Is there something in the alloy or the process that would cause the outer shell to become much tougher than the core? All my previous experience says the whole bullet typically "splashes" & fragments against the back plate. I know copper & zinc work harden, does lead (to such a degree it would be so obvious)? I don't think they were plated, but my first knee jerk reaction was "why do these simple bullets have an aluminum coating?" Not sure but I don't think you can basket plate aluminum. I don't have the tools to check density of such a small sample.

Maybe someone from an indoor range has seen this?

 

[CJR50]

You can dissect a live round. Wiggle the bullet lose from the case and check it out or contact CCI.

CJR50

 

[JBelk]

Watch bullets hit in super slow motion and you'll see the displacement of the cores and shedding of the outer layer of lead.
This link shows jacketed, swaged, rifle, pistol and shotgun impacts.

 

[nsb]

At the end of the day, what does it matter? I’ve seen thousands of bullets splatter like this over the years. They shot great, did what they were supposed to do, and had no negative consequence. You’re looking for a root cause to a problem that doesn’t exist.

 

[Im2Tall2Play2!]

NSB, Actually, it doesn't matter one whit! I was just curious! If anything a tougher outer might enhance the performance of 22LR hollowpoints?

Belk, thanks for the video! It is cool to watch the glass fracture so much faster than the apparent speed of the pellet/bullet. If we compare the speed of sound in glass vs air, glass is 10x air.

CJR50, I will dissect an unfired round. Sadly I have no way to measure hardness on a very small/thin sample. Not even a selection of pencil hardness.

All in all, just an example of "curiosity killed the cat!"

 

[Darkker]

NSB, Actually, it doesn't matter one whit! I was just curious! If anything a tougher outer might enhance the performance of 22LR hollowpoints?

At a launch velocity of ~ 1200 fps, a jacket tougher than soft leaf would negate any expansion.

Cheers

 

[JBelk]

There were some FMJ 22LR made for the Air Force fold-up, .410-22 O/U but I've only seen them as collector ammo.

 

[Kevinbear]

Wondering if the trip down the barrel work hardened the outside of the bullet, I've pulled quite a few 22lr and 22mag bullets and cross sectioned them, none had jackets except some premium 22 mag.

 

[Im2Tall2Play2!]

FYI, here is a couple of photos of the backstop. Nothing fancy except using round corners instead of 45-90° corners.

 

[crooked creek]

At the end of the day, what does it matter? I’ve seen thousands of bullets splatter like this over the years. They shot great, did what they were supposed to do, and had no negative consequence. You’re looking for a root cause to a problem that doesn’t exist.

We are a 'curious' species.....so are cats!

 

[MikeG]

Was thinking that lead alloys work-soften, not work harden.

 

[Im2Tall2Play2!]

This is from a DuckDuck Go search on the term "do lead alloys work harden?"

There are several references below that refer to old BearToothBullets threads. But I was unable to access them.

Bottom lines:
A) Work hardening is not likely, more likely is work softening.
B) Thermal hardening is more likely w/appropriate alloys.
C) Age hardening is a thing, again w/appropriate alloys. Inappropriate alloys quickly hardening then softening. Appropriate alloys hardening over days to a month, then very slowly softening slightly (or a lot) then pretty much stabilizing. Supposedly refered to in the BearToothBullets threads I couldn't see.

Work Harden Lead?

A fellow caster and friend was discussing his experiments on lead hardness and posed this question.... Does lead work harden like other metals? It seems he used his Lee hardness tester to verify some of his boolits and then checked the hardness of them after firing into the dirt...

castboolits.gunloads.com

Stability of lead alloy compressive work hardening

Reinforced concrete structural frames can be infilled with masonry to produce structures that will effectively resist in-plane racking loading but unf…

www.sciencedirect.com

LEad alloys and age hardening. - Shiloh Rifle Forums

ASSRA Forum - Age Hardening/Softening of Cast Bullets?

Web Forum: ASSRA Forum - Age Hardening/Softening of Cast Bullets?

www.assra.com

This artical is pretty technical & aimed @ the lead/acid battery business. The constant reference to arsenic may be why it is considered bad forum to melt down old battery plates!

Heat Treating of Lead and Lead Alloys

www.totalmateria.com

 

[Kevinbear]

After cross sectioning bullets quite a few 22 bullets{mostly hollow points and segmented bullets} I'm pretty sure the lead is homogenous before they're shot so there's the appearance of a hardened or softened skin after the trip down the barrel something changed.
It's an interesting topic I've never seen discussed before now. Probably doesn't mean anything but there's no such thing as to much knowledge about most things. {don't ever look up any kind of medical procedure video before going for one!}

 

[ziptab]

All my 22 magnum rim fire ammo have jacketed bullets. I've never seen a 22 mag that didn't have jacketed bullets. 22WRF(.22 Remington Special) are copper clad.