Unfortunately there is no one size fits all load in reloading cartridges. What works for my gun may very well not work in yours. As an example I have 2 identical rifles. The load that shoots 3/4" groups in one is about 3" in the other.It is a trial and error thing with loads that reloading manuals suggest,
Just found Is this forum Would really appreciate some knowledge From you fellers
I have an old 1885 Winchester High Wall that was my great grandfather's that is in caliber US30, what they call 30-40 Krag nowadays. This gun is still a shooter. I shoot deer with it every now and again, but I'm trying to set it up for some long-distance shooting for these Quigley matches. I have some ballistic tip boat tail 220-grain bullets. I would like to know what powder to start with. I'm sure this stuff has gotta be a custom recipe for that kind of distance shooting. I would sure like to hear from some old-timers who can point me in the right direction.
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Loading for .30-40's in the past, old Krag's, any of the legacy IMR's from 3031 to 4350 worked fine with a wide range of bullet weights. With 220gr bullets, I'd start with one of the 4350's, H, IMR, AA.
Hmm, what's the twist rate on your barrel? A modern 220 grain spitzer boat tail is going to be significantly longer than the traditional 220 RN the 30-40 usually was loaded with, and the longer bullet may not stabilize.
My guess is you may have to drop down in bullet weight to a 190 or 200 grain.
My guess is you may have to drop down in bullet weight to a 190 or 200 grain.
Welcome to the forum from the great state of Tennessee 👍
I'm thinking that twist rate is 1 and 9 It's kinda hard to research this it's a fairly rare Caliber for Winchester highwall The The Madis book Explain that the high velocity rounds We're generally 1 in 9Hmm, what's the twist rate on your barrel? A modern 220 grain spitzer boat tail is going to be significantly longer than the traditional 220 RN the 30-40 usually was loaded with, and the longer bullet may not stabilize.
My guess is you may have to drop down in bullet weight to a 190 or 200 grain.
Easy to check the twist rate with a cleaning rod, tight patch and tape measure. Run a tight patch into the bore about 6", mark the rod with a black or silver marker at the back of the action perpendicular to the rod {bolt out}, come back 12" and make another mark at top dead center longitudinally. Push the rod in watching the top dead center mark until it makes a full revolution and comes back to top dead center. Make another mark at the back of the action on the rod just like the first one. Pull out the rod and measure the distance between the two perpendicular marks, one turn in ........?
The Krag-Jørgensen military rifles had 10-inch twist barrels, and that got carried over to the 30-03 and 30-06. But some books report 9½" twists in some non-military guns, so it would be good to measure it with the cleaning rod and patch. If it is 10 inches, the JBM stability calculator thinks the 1.53-inch long Nosler bullet, at 1900 fps, will still have good stability down to about 32°F in a standard atmosphere. Military barrels often have faster twists than necessary for target shooting because they are expected to maintain stability in very cold climates.
The load information available for that bullet weight in the 30-40 Krag isn't great. Lyman's data says they got the highest velocity and accuracy with Reloader 19 powder. They loaded it under a 220-grain Round Nose, Flat Base bullet. Your bullet will be longer because of the boat tail and the long point, so it will seat deeper and give you less space for the powder to start burning in, thereby raising pressure. The calculators show that for that reason, you will need to use less powder than the charges recommended for the round-nose bullets. Lyman used 42 grains to 46.5 grains of powder with the RN, but the GRT calculator suggests you would want to start with 39.7 grains and work up slowly to a maximum of 44 grains with the Nosler bullet to see the same pressures Lyman with it.
However, all this may be moot. In looking at Quigley match rules online, I see that some allow only cast bullets, gas check optional, and no powder-coated bullets. This is probably because it is authentic to the age and because jacketed bullets are harder on steel targets. So check the rules for the match you are interested in before you spend a lot of money on that powder.
The load information available for that bullet weight in the 30-40 Krag isn't great. Lyman's data says they got the highest velocity and accuracy with Reloader 19 powder. They loaded it under a 220-grain Round Nose, Flat Base bullet. Your bullet will be longer because of the boat tail and the long point, so it will seat deeper and give you less space for the powder to start burning in, thereby raising pressure. The calculators show that for that reason, you will need to use less powder than the charges recommended for the round-nose bullets. Lyman used 42 grains to 46.5 grains of powder with the RN, but the GRT calculator suggests you would want to start with 39.7 grains and work up slowly to a maximum of 44 grains with the Nosler bullet to see the same pressures Lyman with it.
However, all this may be moot. In looking at Quigley match rules online, I see that some allow only cast bullets, gas check optional, and no powder-coated bullets. This is probably because it is authentic to the age and because jacketed bullets are harder on steel targets. So check the rules for the match you are interested in before you spend a lot of money on that powder.
You bet thank you for the information I'll check the Rules before I enter or spend a lot of money But I'm just basically doing this for my own entertainment Besides this old gun was like the very 1st smokeless powder casing in America I think in the 1870s I could be wrong but it's kind Difficult researching this If I'm not mistaken this rifle was produced in more calibers than any other single model ever Old Mr. Moses Browning Was a pretty smart characterThe Krag-Jørgensen military rifles had 10-inch twist barrels, and that got carried over to the 30-03 and 30-06. But some books report 9½" twists in some non-military guns, so it would be good to measure it with the cleaning rod and patch. If it is 10 inches, the JBM stability calculator thinks the 1.53-inch long Nosler bullet, at 1900 fps, will still have good stability down to about 32°F in a standard atmosphere. Military barrels often have faster twists than necessary for target shooting because they are expected to maintain stability in very cold climates.
The load information available for that bullet weight in the 30-40 Krag isn't great. Lyman's data says they got the highest velocity and accuracy with Reloader 19 powder. They loaded it under a 220-grain Round Nose, Flat Base bullet. Your bullet will be longer because of the boat tail and the long point, so it will seat deeper and give you less space for the powder to start burning in, thereby raising pressure. The calculators show that for that reason, you will need to use less powder than the charges recommended for the round-nose bullets. Lyman used 42 grains to 46.5 grains of powder with the RN, but the GRT calculator suggests you would want to start with 39.7 grains and work up slowly to a maximum of 44 grains with the Nosler bullet to see the same pressures Lyman with it.
However, all this may be moot. In looking at Quigley match rules online, I see that some allow only cast bullets, gas check optional, and no powder-coated bullets. This is probably because it is authentic to the age and because jacketed bullets are harder on steel targets. So check the rules for the match you are interested in before you spend a lot of money on that powder.
Welcome from the hills of NW Ct. I'm not sure what you can learn from me. But, I have been known to say, "God saved me to serve as an example, of what not to do!"
Welcome to the Forum. Glad to see you here and there are many good folks here that are willing to assist you. I have been loading for the .30-40 Krag for a long time and followed data from reliable loading manuals. All the best...
Gil
Gil
Welcome to the forum from Missouri!
The little bit that I've read about Quigley matches is that ranges go out to 800 yards. If that is what you mean by "I'm trying to set it up for some long-distance shooting for these Quigley matches.", and you intend to shoot the 30-40 at that distance, have you checked ballistic drop tables? If your High Wall is not already so equipped, I think you are going to need to add a Vernier type tang sight. Barrel mounted 'iron sights' (unless it is a flip up ladder type sight?) or a convention short tang sight won't get you on target at that distance.
Like these: vernier tang sight for 1885 high wall rifle - Google Search
The little bit that I've read about Quigley matches is that ranges go out to 800 yards. If that is what you mean by "I'm trying to set it up for some long-distance shooting for these Quigley matches.", and you intend to shoot the 30-40 at that distance, have you checked ballistic drop tables? If your High Wall is not already so equipped, I think you are going to need to add a Vernier type tang sight. Barrel mounted 'iron sights' (unless it is a flip up ladder type sight?) or a convention short tang sight won't get you on target at that distance.
Like these: vernier tang sight for 1885 high wall rifle - Google Search
If your barrel length is in the usual 18" - 24", then any rifle propellant for which you can find data is likely to work well. If your barrel is longer than 24", you MIGHT pick up some f/s by using the slower-burning propellants. The slowest-burning propellant that Hodgdon lists online is IMR-4350, which is pretty slow-burning.
It might not hurt to inquire of the various propellant manufacturers/marketers/purveyors/ whatever for loading data that best fits your particular rifle (with respect to barrel length).
It might not hurt to inquire of the various propellant manufacturers/marketers/purveyors/ whatever for loading data that best fits your particular rifle (with respect to barrel length).
That is the type of Distance I'm setting the gun up for Have latter sites and all aiming equipment already attached Is going to start off with some H380 Pushing 220 grn ballistic tip boat tail I really appreciate everyone's helpWelcome to the forum from Missouri!
The little bit that I've read about Quigley matches is that ranges go out to 800 yards. If that is what you mean by "I'm trying to set it up for some long-distance shooting for these Quigley matches.", and you intend to shoot the 30-40 at that distance, have you checked ballistic drop tables? If your High Wall is not already so equipped, I think you are going to need to add a Vernier type tang sight. Barrel mounted 'iron sights' (unless it is a flip up ladder type sight?) or a convention short tang sight won't get you on target at that distance.
Like these: vernier tang sight for 1885 high wall rifle - Google Search
Spoken like a true connoisseur of lifeWelcome from the hills of NW Ct. I'm not sure what you can learn from me. But, I have been known to say, "God saved me to serve as an example, of what not to do!"
Dorris,
If you are chasing the stated G1 BC numbers, standard pressure launch velocities won't achieve the advertised BC's.
Cheers
I'm curious why you're such a heavy bullet?Pushing 220 grn ballistic tip boat tail I really appreciate everyone's help
If you are chasing the stated G1 BC numbers, standard pressure launch velocities won't achieve the advertised BC's.
Cheers
Darker I'm not really Chasing anything I'm looking for some information I'm not a math geek so I have to work this stuff out slowly Thank you for what you said I'll have to get some books to understand it I'm sure they're common for everyone but Hey I'm just enjoying my time with my Great grandfather's rifle I'm not gonna set no recordsDorris,
I'm curious why you're such a heavy bullet?
If you are chasing the stated G1 BC numbers, standard pressure launch velocities won't achieve the advertised BC's.
Cheers
Fair enough. Here's some simple info for you about this subject.
BC is a measurement, against a standard projectile, for how well a bullet can over come air resistance.
There are many standard projectiles, for various bullet shapes; G1, G5, G7, etc.
What most reloaders know/see, are single G1 BC numbers. However when shooting most match type bullets, such as your tipped boat tail; those aren't a good match against the standard G1 projectile. So for such bullets, there are actually several G1 ratings, depending upon speed. If you go to Sierra bullets website, they actually list the 'steps', which will give you an idea of how that works.
Your proposed bullet, is better served by using the G7 coefficient, until you drop below the transonic velocity range. At that point, the lowest G1 becomes a better description of how the bullet flies.
A really easy way to see/track/learn this, is from one of the regularly updated ballistic calculators. Such as Hornady's 4DOF calculator, or the Shooter app by Sean Kennedy.
Best of luck in your efforts. 🙂
Cheers
BC is a measurement, against a standard projectile, for how well a bullet can over come air resistance.
There are many standard projectiles, for various bullet shapes; G1, G5, G7, etc.
What most reloaders know/see, are single G1 BC numbers. However when shooting most match type bullets, such as your tipped boat tail; those aren't a good match against the standard G1 projectile. So for such bullets, there are actually several G1 ratings, depending upon speed. If you go to Sierra bullets website, they actually list the 'steps', which will give you an idea of how that works.
Your proposed bullet, is better served by using the G7 coefficient, until you drop below the transonic velocity range. At that point, the lowest G1 becomes a better description of how the bullet flies.
A really easy way to see/track/learn this, is from one of the regularly updated ballistic calculators. Such as Hornady's 4DOF calculator, or the Shooter app by Sean Kennedy.
Best of luck in your efforts. 🙂
Cheers
Mark your cleaning rod and run a tight patch down it and count the turns and then measure the inches a little tiny line on the rod and when you go 360°, then you know how many inches it went into the barrel that’s your twist.
I would be surprised if it’s a one and nine
I would be surprised if it’s a one and nine
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
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