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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The most important things are often ignored in human kills of animals, human judgment and skill. Human judgment and skill includes shot placement, bullet selection, the gun cartridge, accuracy of the gun, and target practice. Many try to place the blame on the gun or the bullet, while they are the ones that picked it or sighted it in (or not).

The problems with most killing formulas are that they oversimplified the situation. The following is just what I think and can be picked apart. So do not take this as a personal assult, it is just me on a soap box. More is unknown than known. Shot placement trumps it all. Some pistol experts focus mostly on Meplat (frontal area of the bullet) and feel that velocity has minimal effect. Rifle formulas are mostly in the reverse. Many do figure in velocity in penetration, at least. But, I have seen none that figure in hydro shock. Time of energy transfer does also have an effect; you can see that in boxing and felt recoil. Many rifle killing formulas break down to a constant times Bullet gr squared times Velocity squared. To include bullet frontal area one must add in on not multiply it, especially with Sectional Density as frontal area cancels out the diam. squared part in SD. So many killing formulas are basically the same without anyone knowing it and frontal area of the bullet is seldom is considered. I do not know of any formulas that deal with bullet expansion or weight retention. This varies a lot with design and quality of the bullet. Yes the bullet has major impact. Many are starting to figure in physical size and toughness. Some also note the mental state of the animal, and when the bullet strikes (if heart is a rest or increasing blood pressure so that a bullet shock causes a fatal spike in blood pressure – then animal drops in its tracks), and many other variables that are nearly impossible figure in. So do the math and see what your favorite formula boils down to as the wool may have been pulled over you eyes. I can show some of the math. I did it once and misplaced it. I was making up a killing formula that included an area and penetration component that made an attempt at figuring bullet expansion. Bullet frontal area, expansion (or not) and weight retention does directly effect penetration and the wound channel. There is a relationship with frontal area and penetration, if one increases the other must decrease. The wound seems to be more of a combination of me plat, velocity, and penetration (excess or insufficient) than any one factor. Plus the energy of the bullet remaining once it exits is lost. There is a major exception to this: there is a value to having entrance and exit wounds. Some of the excess energy has a function, plus it can be an insurance policy.

Still, the most important things are often ignored - the person shooting the gunl. Human judgment and skill includes shot placement, bullet seection, the gun cartridge, accuracy of the gun used, and target practice. Many try to place the blame on the gun or the bullet, while they are the ones that picked it or who sighted it in (or not).
 

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That's a lot of verbage to say - shot placement is all important, whether a .22LR or .500 Nitro.
 

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APEE

Accuracy
Penetration
Expansion
Energy

In that order, specifically. If your bullets come "pre-expanded", like the wide, flat meplat on the pistol bullets you mentioned, then refer to the other three. Energy is last for a reason; it is the least important.

Within sane limits, if your bullets meet those criterion, you're going to be skinning a lot o' critters.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
hydrostatic shock not a Smoke Screen

Check out this article on hydrostatic shock at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

It has references, charts, and more verbiage including:

"190 to 220 ft-lb. It has been shown that bullets transferring over 500 ft-lb of energy in 12 inches of penetration can produce remote wounding effects sometimes called hydrostatic shock. "

I do think Momentum is a better predictor than Energy Ft LB, check it out.

So yes energy or better yet Momentum is important in pistols also. Keith understood that. The thing with pistols is all tend to be shot at the same velocity like muzzloders with black powder. Since there is so little change in velocity that can be generated, the Weight of the ball (before bullets excited) is the only/major way to transmit more energy to the target. The only way to increase the weight of a ball is by increasing its diameter a lot like in pistols. This has been known for centuries.

Common Velocity roughly 1000 with round balls

A squirrel gun 36 caliber
A deer gun 45 caliber 128 grains ball
An elk gun 50 caliber - 177 grains ball
A better elk/bear gun 54 caliber - 230 grains ball
... 58 cal
... 70 cal

Only after the development of the bullet did the 45 become the caliber of choice.

I assume the definition of "pre-expanded", is non-expanding bullets as in cast pistol bullets with wide, flat meplat.

Most rifle bullets and many defense pistol bullets are expanding bullets at velocities and targets that they are designed to expand at. “Solids” are non-expanding bullets
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Broom jm

Stated:

"APEE

Accuracy
Penetration
Expansion
Energy"

Again there is no mention of Hunter Skill and Judgment

In short all the following boils down to this:

Hunter Skill and Judgment
Shot placement
Bullet Performance (the right bullet for the right job)
Energy

Most people should probably stop reading now


Hunter Skill and Judgment - considers the accuracy of the gun, the distance chosen to shoot from, the attempted shot placement under the conditions, the actual shot placement. First one has to find the game and have a makeable shot

Ihe precision of the shot, bullet selection,the accuracy of the gun, and energy, and all go back to Hunter Skill and Judgment

Accuracy if you mean accuracy or better precision resulting in correct shoot placement
Penetration is a function of bullet diam or meplat and the area that the energy is transferred to
Expansion effects the area and time in which the energy is transferred and penetration
Energy is required for penetration and expansion

Energy must be enough penetration and sometimes expand if the bullet in expanding bullet or a non expanding bullet that fails and expands.

This takes care of Permanent Wound Channel and to some degree Temporary Wound Channel. But the time period (velocity) and the amount of energy released also effects Permanent Wound Channel and Hydrostatic shock (the explosion of a water jug)

So APEE can mislead people as accuracy of the gun does not mean much. What makes the most difference is the skill and judgment of the holder of the gun. People kill guns do not
 

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So APEE can mislead people as accuracy of the gun does not mean much. What makes the most difference is the skill and judgment of the holder of the gun. People kill guns do not
I respectfully disagree; accuracy means a great deal and will always be a determining factor in whether or not a given shot harvests an animal. Idiots with accurate guns kill tens of thousands of big game animals every year. They are not good hunters, per se, and they don't display good judgment: What they DO...is put the crosshairs behind the shoulder and sqeeeeze the trigger.

Modern rifles, with quality scopes, have mitigated the need for true woodsmanship or even a token understanding of external ballistics. There are more hunters out there who know virtually nothing about how or why their '06, or latest super manglem, is effective, but if they satisfy the first criterion I mentioned earlier, accuracy, they only need a little luck to be a successful hunter. In many areas, game is abundant and tactics like tree stands, bait stations and other technologies result in overall success rates that even the most experienced woodsmen of old would marvel at! These days, skill and judgment have little to do with a large percentage of the animals taken each fall.

I truly appreciate your sentiment, that more emphasis should be placed on what is between a hunter's ears, but the simple truth is, an accurate shot, whether fired by a genius or a fool, will put meat in the freezer. Introduce a new person to hunting and put them in a ground blind, overlooking a good food plot. No skill, no experience, no "judgment"...a well-placed shot still gets the job done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I respectfully disagree; accuracy means a great deal and will always be a determining factor in whether or not a given shot harvests an animal. Idiots with accurate guns kill tens of thousands of big game animals every year. They are not good hunters, per se, and they don't display good judgment: What they DO...is put the crosshairs behind the shoulder and sqeeeeze the trigger.

Modern rifles, with quality scopes, have mitigated the need for true woodsmanship or even a token understanding of external ballistics. There are more hunters out there who know virtually nothing about how or why their '06, or latest super manglem, is effective, but if they satisfy the first criterion I mentioned earlier, accuracy, they only need a little luck to be a successful hunter. In many areas, game is abundant and tactics like tree stands, bait stations and other technologies result in overall success rates that even the most experienced woodsmen of old would marvel at! These days, skill and judgment have little to do with a large percentage of the animals taken each fall.

I truly appreciate your sentiment, that more emphasis should be placed on what is between a hunter's ears, but the simple truth is, an accurate shot, whether fired by a genius or a fool, will put meat in the freezer. Introduce a new person to hunting and put them in a ground blind, overlooking a good food plot. No skill, no experience, no "judgment"...a well-placed shot still gets the job done.
I do see your point and respect the way you said it. I am grateful for the quality of people on this site and I have a lot to learn and maybe a little to share. Yes I agree, I tend to wish more from hunters, maybe that is why I would rather avoid open seasons and hunt controlled hunts.

However taking the time to buy an accurate gun and sight it in is good judgment. I know my dad never sighted in his gun. He got his deer due to a lot of chances and being able to get close. So he used skill instead of good judgment. Ok then I will agree to it if you could substitute Precision instead of accuracy. Even if some think they are the same thing. An accurate gun is no good if it is not sighted in or if the shooter does not have the skill or luck to hit the correct spot. More over a gun does not have to be accurate if the shot hits the correct spot by chance even an idiot gets blessed sometimes. Plus a well placed shot does take either some knowledge, skill, or luck.
 

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Quote:
"Idiots with accurate guns kill tens of thousands of big game animals every year. They are not good hunters, per se, and they don't display good judgment: What they DO...is put the crosshairs behind the shoulder and sqeeeeze the trigger."

I'm afraid that I'm a bit confused with this comment. Because someone is not a "good hunter" by somone else's definition, they are "idiots with accurate rifles"?? They don't display "good judgement" but they do put the crosshairs in the right spot and collect a deer and that's not good??


Well, what would you call the "really good" hunters that don't harvest a deer then? Smart hunters?

I'm just a little confused about that "idiot" comment. Perhaps you could explain it for me. :confused:
 

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Well, for the last several years, I've run a string of bow kills, including the largest whitetail in my 45years of hunting, all of which have dropped in sight of the stand. I typically shoot 4-6 deer a year with a bow. KE is in the .22LR range.

I have also assisted with control shooting to reduce crop damage. Laws mandate 12Ga, slugs or buck, 20ga slugs only. Shots are not only an issue of placement, but potential hazard to dwellings and equipment. Feeding deer Usually go down like a proverbial "sack" every time I pull the trigger, but not always. Shots are limited to <75yds. Spooked, with a bit of adrenalin, deer go much farther with any given placement. I shoot 24-48 deer/yr under these situations.

The difference between an arrow and a 12Ga. slug is pretty extreme with respect to any property you want to side with, yet results are nearly identical.

Shot placement is the key, and two holes helps, a lot.
 

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Quote:
"Idiots with accurate guns kill tens of thousands of big game animals every year. They are not good hunters, per se, and they don't display good judgment: What they DO...is put the crosshairs behind the shoulder and sqeeeeze the trigger."

I'm afraid that I'm a bit confused with this comment. Because someone is not a "good hunter" by somone else's definition, they are "idiots with accurate rifles"?? They don't display "good judgement" but they do put the crosshairs in the right spot and collect a deer and that's not good??


Well, what would you call the "really good" hunters that don't harvest a deer then? Smart hunters?

I'm just a little confused about that "idiot" comment. Perhaps you could explain it for me. :confused:
I'm talking about guys who go out in the woods about 9:30 in the morning, smelling like the bar they were at until 2AM, wearing the same sweaty bib overalls they worked in all week and climb into the blind they set up 20 minutes before they started "hunting". You know...the guys who really shouldn't get a deer, but because they're on good land and have a decent bolt-action that they spent an hour at the range with, last weekend, they DO get a deer? They use grunt calls in September and rattle in January and would have to look at the box to tell you how many grains their bullet weighs. There is a whole army of hunters out there who are really not prepared for success, but they achieve it by having access to quality firearms and land with good populations of game.

They don't use good judgment or skill, they just hunt where there are deer and can put a bullet where it needs to go. As Jakeway signs his posts with..."It ain't rocket surgery, for cryin' outside!"

If you don't have hunters like this in your area, you are truly blessed. :)
 

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I'm talking about guys who go out in the woods about 9:30 in the morning, smelling like the bar they were at until 2AM, wearing the same sweaty bib overalls they worked in all week and climb into the blind they set up 20 minutes before they started "hunting". You know...the guys who really shouldn't get a deer, but because they're on good land and have a decent bolt-action that they spent an hour at the range with, last weekend, they DO get a deer? They use grunt calls in September and rattle in January and would have to look at the box to tell you how many grains their bullet weighs. There is a whole army of hunters out there who are really not prepared for success, but they achieve it by having access to quality firearms and land with good populations of game.

They don't use good judgment or skill, they just hunt where there are deer and can put a bullet where it needs to go. As Jakeway signs his posts with..."It ain't rocket surgery, for cryin' outside!"

If you don't have hunters like this in your area, you are truly blessed. :)
Mr Broom, I've been hunting a good long time and I've shot a good number of deer with LOTS of different rifles in lots of different chamberings and my opinion on that discourse is.....

Personally, I am glad for any hunter who kills any deer on any day, at any time. Just as long as it's done 100% legally. I hold no grudges for any ethical legal hunter, period. It's ALL GOOD!

I've known great hunters that don't have the first clue about ballistics (are they really necessary to kill a deer??) and I've known great shooters who forgot to raise their rifles to shoot. It's simply hunting after all. And it's meant to be a pleasant past time for those who participate, no matter what their "skill" level. That's what so great about it. We can have different levels of experience and still simply enjoy the "love of the hunt". My only problem is this, "hunters" that tell me what rifle is best and what bullet I should shoot and what caliber is best for accuracy reasons. And then those experts can't seem find a deer to hang their tags on. I call them I.E.s ("Internet Experts").

I'd suppose you'd say that we simply see things through different eyes, I reckon. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
I'm talking about guys who go out in the woods about 9:30 in the morning, smelling like the bar they were at until 2AM, wearing the same sweaty bib overalls they worked in all week and climb into the blind they set up 20 minutes before they started "hunting". You know...the guys who really shouldn't get a deer, but because they're on good land and have a decent bolt-action that they spent an hour at the range with, last weekend, they DO get a deer?
If you don't have hunters like this in your area, you are truly blessed. :)
I agree, I allmost laugh when I see a person wearing his camo in a bar, smoking, or for everyday wear. Do they think they are invisible to only game with camo and deer cannot smell? But, I quess people like me that wash their hunting cloths with IR elimater and pack them with baking soda (some I hear even place them in a plastic bag and only put them on when the start hunting). I took a bath with only water and baking soda., not the best way to keep you skin moist. I guess that I have been a little crazy too and should be laughed at. I have not been so weird for a while at least regarding this issue.

Now, I think is is more important to move slow or not at all and not let them smell you by being aware of wind currents.

Kevin
 

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Mr Broom, I've been hunting a good long time and I've shot a good number of deer with LOTS of different rifles in lots of different chamberings and my opinion on that discourse is.....

Personally, I am glad for any hunter who kills any deer on any day, at any time. Just as long as it's done 100% legally. I hold no grudges for any ethical legal hunter, period. It's ALL GOOD!

I've known great hunters that don't have the first clue about ballistics (are they really necessary to kill a deer??) and I've known great shooters who forgot to raise their rifles to shoot. It's simply hunting after all. And it's meant to be a pleasant past time for those who participate, no matter what their "skill" level. That's what so great about it. We can have different levels of experience and still simply enjoy the "love of the hunt". My only problem is this, "hunters" that tell me what rifle is best and what bullet I should shoot and what caliber is best for accuracy reasons. And then those experts can't seem find a deer to hang their tags on. I call them I.E.s ("Internet Experts").

I'd suppose you'd say that we simply see things through different eyes, I reckon. ;)
I don't see where anything we've said is mutually exclusive...I agree with all of the above. I'm not saying I hold grudges against hunters who have more luck than skill. In fact, my response to the OP was to point out that many hunters aren't all that skillful, but if they can hit what they're aiming at and have access to good hunting land, they frequently meet with success. More power to 'em. ;)

As far as opinions...well, I'm not going to deny I have a few of those, but most folks just take it for what it is. I'm somewhat of an expert on the internet, being certified in TCP/IP, but I've loaded a few rounds and harvested a few deer, as well. I doubt we see things all that differently, when it comes right down to it.
 

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You're Prolly right about that!! :D
 
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