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Discussion Starter #1
While looking at the E. Aurthur Brown web site I saw this article on their "Bench Rest Magnum" cartridges. This is probably an unfortunate name as they are not magnums. But the cartridges are interesting and the thoughts on killing power are very interesting (because I agree with them?).


http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report03.html

(I'm not a computer guy, I actualy attached a link!)
The gist is that they think, and so do I, that there is magic in the 2400 to 2500 feet per second range. Actually I think it is from 2300 to 2500 fps but I wont argue over 100 fps.
Take a look and tell me what you think.
 

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Thats interesting. The theory probably also explains the devastating impact of the 35 Whelen and 358 winchester coupled with large frontal area. African Big 5 hunters have also always preferred big heavy bullets traveling at moderate velocities.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yes, I think so. the British used the .400-350(?) which was in the Whelen range and the Germans had a 9.5mm that was right in there with them.
For the U.S. and deer type shooting it explains the reputation and the actual killing power of the .300 Savage, .30-40 Krag, .303 British type cartridges.
I know that with the .307 Win. pushing a .30-30 type 170 grain bullet at 2300 fps+, the killing power seems out of proportion to the velocity/bullet weight/rifle size.
The same can be said for the .356 with any of the 200 grain round nose bullets. or the 200 grain cast bullets.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Interesting reading, BUT no actual scientific explanation. So, basically, it amounts to opinion.

I'm not saying that the velocity range isn't ideal for hunting - it covers a lot of what I already shoot - but it would be nice to see more detail.

Personally - I own a 6.5x55, and it is a lot of fun to shoot, accurate, and the recoil doesn't beat the snot out of you. Those factors lead to good shot placement, arguably the MOST important factor in hunting success. If the "Bench Rest Magnums" (?) have moderate velocity and moderate recoil, then perhaps they are benefitting from better shot placement as well.

Don't know, honestly. Can't totally agree that there is a 'magic' velocity range as I've had perfectly good results from 1,000fps to 4,000fps, depending on the application.
 

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I'm certainly no "expert", but It seems to me that velocity is only one of the factors to consider here. Bullet diameter, weight, and CONSTRUCTION must be factored in, don't you think? Putting the bullet where it belongs on target is a given.:)
 

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Any bullet will perform at a given velocity will expand perfectly and placing the shot will enhance that performance.
It would seen fron reading the info, thats what was done. Anything earth shattering ? Not really.

Bill
 

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Have no argument with what I read...agree with it. The big advantage of more velocity is having the bullet arrive at a distance with the same velocity that smaller cases get at standard ranges. If you don't shoot real far, then there isn't a buring reason to toss the bullets out at those +3K speeds.

Given a choice between +3K velocity and more bullet weight...I'll take the weight.
 

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Well Now....Interesting and maybe some truth? After our group has spent 2 1/2 years testing various hard cast and jacketed bullets on wild hogs and deer under crop damage controls, some things have led us to feel that terminal performance comes from Velocity-Bullet Weight-and above all Meplat Area (either expanded or non-expanded). For those who like a formula to compare one bullet's potential to another, try Gates Power Factor...Velocity x Bullet Weight x Area of Meplat. Pressure in fluid/tissue is generated by the area of the meplat and is dynamic to the weight and velocity of the bullet. This formula is just a take off of a famous one that uses just the diameter of the bullet.
Best Regards-James C. Gates
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I grew up reading about W.D.M.Bell, Lysle and Pease. I am a believer in medium velocity bullets of good sectional density and bullets of either a wide meplat or good expansion.
 

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Slim..You certainly are not alone in that and I tend to lean that way myself. We are living in the Super-Sales-Pitch era...if there is no demand, create one! If the great "Heads" you mentioned were alive today, they would not get any of their work published in the rags on the news stands. It's an age of syndicated writers pushing products of whoever does the most advertising, gives them the most "Freebies", etc. As the overall shooting industry "Pie" gets smaller (and it will) all the manufacturers will be even more aggressive pushing so-call new wonder products to fill the pipes! Best Regards, James
 

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Think some of it is easy: more shooters, fewer hunters.

While I agree that the overall "pie" is smaller in size, seems that the value of the pie has increased...shooters don't sneeze at spending some serious money, and most of them have several rifles. Instead of trying to sell 100 people one rifle, seems more aimed at selling 10 people 10 rifles each.

With that philosophy, then the specialty rifle (and cartridge) become profitiable.
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Well known: "Can only sell someone what they want, not what they actually need". Create a "want" and you'll make money...doesn't have to be a reasonable "want" (remember "pet rocks"?).
 

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I myself prefer a medium to heavy weight well constructed bullet like the TBBC or Nosler partition bullet, NOT going the super sonic route, which will mushroom properly. Energy is fine and dandy but it doesn't kill big game animals. Shot placement is very important every time out the gate, but without proper penetration into those vital areas, your up a creek without a paddle.
 

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I have to agree with ribbonstone and Mr Gates. The market is driven, not pulled. The superfast round does have the advantage of flat trajectory, but I have to temper that with a few facts:
1. It consumes more powder.
2. It will cause more wear in the barrel.
3. It will shorten your case life.
4. The round will be "inside" the target area for a shorter peroid of time. (When the round passes all the way thru)
5. The longer the bullet is inside the subject, the more energy it will absorb from the bullet, thus increasing the shock load.

I could be wrong, but I have shot some fine loads that were sloooooo.....

:eek:
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Smokey,

While I generally agree with you re: velocity - my two fastest hog kills (that weren't head/spine shots) were with a handgun bullet at about 1,000fps - not everything you wrote is correct:

1. Agree
2. Maybe - somewhat depends on the powder selected, bullet construction, rate of fire, and gun cleaning habits. But yeah, 40gr. 22 bullets at 4,000fps wear out barrels faster than 150gr. 30 cal bullets at 2200fps.
3. Disagree - pressures being equal, there should be no difference. And case life is largely dependent on chamber fit and reloading die setup. I've had mild loads wear out cases fast due to these factors.
4. Not necessarily - depends on how much velocity lost while in target (rate of decelleration). For example, could you say that a 150gr. expanding bullet at 3,000fps goes through a target quicker than a 180gr bullet at 2700fps, IF the 180gr bullet expands very little? Or not at all?
5. Insignificant - bullet expansion characteristics are more important (did it expand fast or slow, stay in one glob or have pieces flying every which way, or have an interesting shape while expanded like the Barnes X vs. the traditional lead core/jacketed mushroom?).

Anyway, I do agree that moderate velocity gets the job done at any reasonable hunting range, and often helps our success by keeping our bullets from blowing up before penetrating to the vitals.
 

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Great run! Let's try to sum up some things that we seem to agree on.
(1) The importance of meplat area, whether a large meplat of a hard cast or the expanded meplat of a jacketed bullet. Above all things this is important to transfer pressure, that destroys tissue, to vital areas.
(2) a velocity level based on bullet construction...one the doesn't expand or have a large meplat can not transfer pressure. Also one that is over pushed will frag shallow and not drive deep.
(3) Enough sectional density to penetrate deep
(4) If the range is 200 yards or over....a high ballistic coeffeient. Under that a roundnose jacketed bullet may be best.
(5) a rifle weight/caliber balanced with recoil to aid in shooting.
(6) at last, but maybe most important...national survey states most game is killed under 100 yards. Fit all the above requirements on the specific conditions in your area. Again, a great run! Regards, James
 

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MikeG,

Can you elaborate a little on the metplat value of a projectile? Your views seem to be very sound. How does the shape of the bullet factor when looking at stability, trajectory, penetration, and dispersion?

After reading your post it almost makes me think there may be some "sweet spot" one should try to find in a load. It may not necessarily be in the 24-2600fps range yet vary on each design and caliber.

I appreciate your views, they are helping me achieve a higher level of understanding...Thanks!
 

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I don't think that there has been any definitive analysis of wound channels with different meplats, but the concept is easy to understand.

First.... if you have a spitzer bullet which does not expand, like a FMJ, and it goes straight through without tumbling, you would expect that it will slip through the tissue with a minimum of destruction.

Then, if you had a round nose bullet which does not expand, it would go through tissue with a little more disruption of tissue than the non-expanding spitzer.

The next level might be a spitzer that expands into the classic 'mushroom' shape. Note, however, that the 'mushroom' shape really mimics the RN that doesn't expand, except that it might be much larger (1.5 or 2 times caliber, typically). So it increases the wound channel further still.

Curiously, a flat-nosed bullet, which does not expand, still makes a pretty good wound channel. This shows the value of different meplats. The very blunt nose crushes tissue, it can't slip through. The destroyed tissue is the permanent wound channel.

Throw some more confusion into the story, how about a shape that is different still, like the Barnes "X" or Win Fail Safe. Either of those two opens up into petals that are not going to slip through tissue easily. So their meplat value is harder to calculate than just measuring the expanded diameter of the bullet.

Last factor, what is happening to the tissue that isn't destroyed? There are shock waves going through the tissue as a result of the bullet. Slap your hand down on water and you'll see the same concept, tissue is mostly water. That is energy that is being released and sometimes that energy helps disrupt the central nervous system or vital organs, even if temporarily. Ever shot a deer in the neck and it dropped, then got back up? The nerves in the spine were temporarily disrupted, but not permanently destroyed.

One other complication is an expanding bullet normally loses pieces of the nose or core. Those pieces go off in tangents to the bullet path, and are causing their own shock waves and tissue/nerver/artery destruction. This is why a bullet that loses some weight is not a bad thing, and may increase the overall effectiveness, compared to a bullet with 100% weight retention. After all, even if that bullet exited, not all of it did, and the pieces that stayed in, left 100% of their kinetic energy in the animal.

OK... how about a simple example:

Take a steak out of the refrigerator.

Poke a sharp knife through it. Easy, and minimal tissue destruction.

Poke a fork through it. Harder, and more tissue distruption.

Poke something blunt, like a spoon through it. Much more difficult, and you will see that the spoon tears more of a hole.

Thoughts, anyone else?
 

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Excellent answer! In essence, it is the "Meplat Area" of an expanded jacketed bullet or a cast with a very large meplat working on the fluid in tissue
Again, try this formula for comparison of recovered bullets:
(Weight of bullet in grains divided by 7000)x velocity in fps x (3.1416 x diameter of bullet* x diameter of bullet*) divided by 4 = factor
*expanded or meplat
Best Regards, James
 

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Swallowed A Hand Grenade

About 13 or 14 years ago I read a magazine article written by a writer named Walker who has since passed away. Ever since then I have used his advice with great success.

He hunted whitetail deer for many years in the neighboring State of Alabama and, paraphrasing from memory, suggested the following:

When hunting whitetail deer with a 30-06, handload the Speer 130 grain hollow point at maximum velocity.

The Speer Reloading Manual number 11 (August 1987) published maximum loads for the 130 grain hollow point for the 30-06 from a 22" barreled Rem. 700 and WW cases are:

54.0 gr H335 3132 FPS CCI-250 mag primer
55.0 gr IMR4064 3110 FPS CCI-200 std. primer
53.0 gr BLC2 3081 FPS CCI-250 mag primer
(REMEMBER: START 5 GRAINS UNDER AND WORK UP)

When a whitetail deer is shot behind the shoulder and into the heart/lung area the result is instant death. The deer drops straight down, jumps straight up then down, or falls over dead in its tracks. No running 75-100 yards before expiring. No waiting for the deer to bleed out. No need in following a blood trail at or near dark.

When the 130 grain Speed hollow point enters the heart/lung area of the deer it hardly ever exits. All 1 1/2 tons of energy does its work in the deer and not into the pine tree on the other side. When cleaning the deer it looks like it SWALLOWED A HAND GRENADE but has little meat damage.

Try it. You'll like it.

NITRO,
New Orleans, LA
 
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