[changeling]

I have seen an article by a man called Pearce (I think), that said the 44 Mag LBT 260g WFN GC would tumble at starting velocities below 1200fps. Then he went on to say this bullet was (above 1200fps) very accurate out to 300 yds!
This particular bullet would surely fall below 1200fps way before 300 yards, so how can it remain stable and accurate?
I would like to add that I do not know Mr Pearce but he seemed to be a very knowledgeable person.
I simply want to know??

 

[Stranger]

With a 1:38 twist, a 265g grain bullet should be quite stable at 1200 fps but to reach 300 yards you would need quite a rainbow trajectory. As I understand it, bullets tend to "settle down" in flight so the velocity downrange is less of a factor to stability than muzzle velocity. I'm sure the ballisticians on this board will have a lot to add in terms of an explanation.

 

[changeling]

Stranger, thanks a lot for answering. I am not really interested in shooting out to 300 yards with a 1200 fps load. I have shot at these distances with the 290g LBT LFN loaded to the Max, its a real ball, you would be suprised at how well you can actually do!
My main reason for the post is I have an opertunity to pick up a "as new" LBT 265g WFN mold. I heard that this bullet would start to tumble below 1200fps and I wanted it for a low velocity load. That is why I posted the question? I really don't need the mold but if I can youse it for reduced  loads, practice and small game I would get it.

 

[IDShooter]

Changeling,
      I reread this article last night (back when the article came out I read it but didn't have a revolver, thus no point of reference!) to see just what he said. I have a good deal of respect for Brian Pearce's writing, partly because he's a fellow Idahoan, and mostly because he seems to write what he observes rather than what he has heard.
     He specifically singles out WFN bullets of 250-275 grains, stating that 260gr WFN GC bullets begin tumbling at 50 yds when fired at 800-1000 fps. In other parts of the article he mentions heavy bullets at these velocities, but using different shapes (Keith 255's etc). I am pretty sure that he has had this occur or he wouldn't have written it (naive, I know!) but WHY it happened I couldn't say. I also couldn't say if this applied to all WFN's, or if perhaps he had a specific problem with one bullet. The only thing that comes to mind is that wadcutters are sometimes cited as being unstable at longer range, and maybe this is related.
      In terms of gyroscopic stability, the shorter WFN (relative to other bullet shapes) at a given rotation SHOULD be more stable. The only thing that could create instabilty in this scenario would be air resistance. I have no personal experience in this yet, but since I happen to have some 265 gr WFN GC bullets I intend to test them myself, as soon as I finish lapping my revolver!      See ya, ID

 

[changeling]

ID, Thanks for the reply. You definately have the right article. I guess you can see my quandry to "buy or not to buy" the mold. I also liked Mr. Pearce's article, he seemed to be exactly as you described.
If you get the chance to test the LBT's I would really appreciate your findings.
I have shot the LBT 290g LFN (give or take 5g) and really like them. If you need any information on this round let me know, maybe we can get a LBT thing going here! I only had 200 of these but they were superbly accurate when driven hard from my Ruger SBH 7.5! In fact I liked them so much I am ordering some from Beartooth tonight, but a 12 week wait is rediculous, so I am also going for a great mold from someone, just don't know who wet.
Take care and stay in touch,
[email protected]

 

[Marshall Stanton]

I'm sorry for the wait gentlemen!

We're working as long and as hard as humanly possible right now to get your orders out the door!  Please keep in mind that all our bullets are hand cast, sized and packaged.  We NEVER use machine casting or sizing proceedures in manufacturing our bullets.

Yes, we have a horrendous backlog of orders, but I won't compromise quality for quantity... you wouldn't want them if I did!

Rediculous, having a 12+ week wait for bullets?  Perhaps, but I think more rediculous to sell anything less than the very best premium bullet we are capable of producing!  I do promise that your bullets, once they arrive will be no less than the premium product you have come to expect from Beartooth Bullets!

Thanks so much to all, and God Bless,

Marshall

 

[James Gates]

I have not read Pearce's article and really don't know what his problem is with the 265 LBT bullets. If I am not mistaken the Beartooth LBT 265 WFN is no longer than the Keith 250 #429421 and that bullet has been used for at least 50 years at velocitys as low as 900 fps? In preparation for the Meat test we are doing in South Florida, we have shot the Beartooth LBT 265 at velocities between 900 and 1200 fps in .44 Specials, 1200 to 1400 fps in the Ruger SBH, and 1400 fps up in the Marlin 1894P. Even lobbing them into a big 100 yard target at 100 yards with a 1950 S&W .44 Special (1000 fps) we have seen no key holes! All bullets were sized at .432"
Now....For the 90 day delay in recieving your bullets. Americans have become too accustomed to the Wally Mart "Get It Quick!" syndrome. Have you checked as of late the time it takes to get custom rifle stock or barrel work? Yes, Mashall's bullets are "Custom" bullets in every sense of the word. The answer is simple.....figure out what your supply of bullets would be for 90 days, put an order in, and when your bullets arrive re-enter another 90 day supply order. While waiting for your first order, bug some quick-ship machine made stuff and pretice!
As for moulding your own.....it'a a nice pastime, but I for one would rather let Marshall worry about quality, sizing, heat treating, proper alloy, and all the rest!
Am I super loyal to Beartooth bullets, you betcha! In 40 some odd years of shooting hard cast, I have never found (or could cast) a better game and target bullet! The days of consistant wheelweight and scrap alloy is over. Everthing is more expensive. With all this in mind, a revolving 90 day shipment and order entry does not look all that bad to me!
Best Regards as Always, James

 

[changeling]

Thanks for your reply Mr. Gates. I have also shot the 250g Keith bullet with no problems from around 850 to over 1400 fps in a 7.5 inch Ruger (set up for cast). I asked the 1200 fps question in regard to Mr. Pearce's article in "Handloader". He appears to be a very knowledgeable person, but I simply do not know! You are exactly right when you say the Keith is longer than the LBT (the LBT is shorter). I fully understand the reasoning for anyone saying there should not be a problem because of the shorter projectile. I was just reporting what I read! I now own the 265g LBT WFN in 44 Mag (431, what I shoot). As soon as I get time to pour some bullets I will figure this thing out (thats the "catch 22", getting the time!).
I really appreciate your input and observence with this particular bullet, and sharing it with me.
I too have poured a few bullets and would really like to have a source for "Quality" bullets, (I'm tired of pouring) that is why I am at Beartooth's web site.
I did not want to wait 90 days for a bullet that I was not sure I could even use in the way I want to! I am sure you understand this.
I would like to know more about the "meat" shoot???
changeling

 

 

[James Gates]

Hello Changeling....Good to hear back from you! I don't know Pearce, his background, or his qualifications.....so I can't comment on his article. We do know that stabilization is a relationship to bullet length and velocity, not weight. We also know that rotational spin is not affected by air resistance to any great degree, therefore a bullet with a large meplat maitains rotational spin as well as a spitzer. Once maintaining rotational spin by the velocity/barrel twist at bullet release, the bullet loses very little spin in its flight. It is true that a wide meplat does cause more forward air resistance, therefore a faster loss in velocity....But, quite frankly has little loss within normal handgun ranges. As you know there are many factors in whether or not a bullet leaves the barrel with full spin, etc..undersize bullets, proper size for chamber throats, voids in the bullet, and many more.
I don't subscribe to th ultra heavy handgun bullets (but, thats another story) as I want enough velocity to cause the large meplat to give a large wound channel. I think the LBT 265 gr WFN GC may well be the best actual game bullet. No...I don't shoot sticks and boards, wet paper, etc....We shoot game and look at the balance between penetration and wound channel. We don't shoot Griz, Moose, or Elk...But do kill many wild boar hogs in the 400+ pound class.
As for the Meat Shoot Tests....We are shooting trapped and free running wild hogs on a South Florida Ranch, as well as along the Swannnee River. We are in the process of testing some 13 different Beartooth .44 calibre bullet weights at various velocities. As nothing is absolute, due to all the shot angles, etc...only time and careful analysis will give some ideas on bullet perfomance. It my hope that the forum would contribute to the database, but we have recieved only one reply. From this I can only surmiss that the forum is interested more in the techo side of handgunning than actual hunting performance of hard cast bullets.
Best Regards, James

 

[Husker]

James,

As you recall, I asked some questions earlier about the meat hunters.  The more you elaborate on the topic, the more envious I get.  Unfortunately, I don't live in your part of the country and am not able to "meat" hunt with anything like your frequency.  Our only big game hunting opportunity is the 9-day firearms deer season in November.  I will be out with my 41 mag and a 250gr LBT.  Lets hope I have something to report at that time.

As luck would have it, this year I am also planning a hog hunt in North Carolina.  I will be out with my 5-shot 45colt and one of Marshall's 350gr LCMN bullets.  Unfortunately this is more of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, rather than a regular event.

I wish I could hunt more often.  I am sure other forum participants are in the same situation.  Hunting season in most of the Northern and Western states is getting closer.  I expect you will get more reports for your database later this year.  Don't lose hope.

 

[MikeG]

James, I'm just itching to send you some data, but hog hunting this summer has been pathetic.  Only one, and shot with a .338/jacketed bullets, so no useful information re: cast bullets/revolvers.  I know you also asked for jacketed info too, but I wasn't thinking of that at the time when the hog was being dressed, and did not take any measurements - sorry!

Got a few more hunts lined up, pest control mostly, and will let you know how it works out.  Have several loads to test.

 

[James Gates]

Chick (Husker) and Mike......Thank you for your kind replies! With the shooting tests we are not trying to prove or disprove anything, but rather compile into a database form results that might be interesting in the selection of handgun hunting bullets. Measurements are fine, but I also need your "Gut Feelings" about the bullet's performance.
Yes...We arevery fortunate in Florida to have the long big game season (Nov.10 to Jan,20) anf great bag limits(2 deer a day, no season limit). Wild hogs are considered game animal only on govt.land and can be hunted year round on orivate land. With the cheap 10 day out of state lincese (&#3626.50), we are now getting hunters from all over.
Florida woods and waters are different than any I've hunted in the USA. We are on the edge of the sub-tropics and the land is very flat. Deer and hogs feed more at night and in some places we use dogs to get them up.
We have some forum members coming down this year and maybe more will next year. We put on quite a feed/hunt at Thanksgiving.
Best Regards, James

 

[changeling]

Mr Gates, when you talk about the "meat hunt" and expecting more input from the "Forum" are you refering to annimals taken with LBT bullets or what? I looked over the web site (Beartooth) and couldn't find any more information in the form of "bullet" performance, so I am somewhat confused as to what you are looking for!
If interested I have two kills on whitetails with the LBT 290g LFN GC which might be of interest to you.
changeling

 

[James Gates]

Changeling ans All....It appears that, due to lack of interest, the meat Shoot questionaire has gotton buried by more recent new posts.
The sheet was quite simple to use and was based on what we are entering into the database.
If you, or anyone else, will contribute send me an email and I will email you a copy back.
We are beginning to get some interesting results from outside of the forum.
Basically, due to meplat and velocity of the 250/280 gr bullets appear to have the best terminal performance. The LBT 265 gr is tops, with enough weight for more than adequate pemetration on 400+ pound hogs and the .340" meplat
causing excellent permanent wound channels. I know this goes contrary to some shooters idea about the 300+ gr bullets, but facts are facts.
Best Regards to All, James

 

[changeling]

James I sent you an email requesting the form.
I would really appreciate seeing the results of the survey you are performing. This is quite an undertaking on your part and should open up a lot of the myths concerning bullet performance.
The sideways shots through the hogs would not suprise me on complete penetration, end to end would.
changeling

 

[James Gates]

Changeling and Chuck....I just emailed both of you a copy of the form. Side angle shots due require less penetration than endways shots.....however you can rest assured that the Beartooth LBt's, velocity and weight the same, will penetrate far more than an equal jacket bullet.
Thank you both for your help.....Best Regards, James

 

[Stranger]

James I'm curious...

Does that mean that from the data you've gathered that there is no real advantage to the 300g bullets over lighter slugs when taking large game such as these 400 lb tuskers?

(Edited by Stranger at 2:44 pm on Oct. 4, 2001)

 

[James Gates]

Jack...It appears that there is little if any difference in the overall penetration between the Beartooth 265 gr LBT bullet and the 300 gr bullet. It looks like the aditional velocity one can get with the 265 gr offsets the aditional weight of the 300 gr. Both are giving complete penetration of side on and quartering shots. Of course, this is not conclusive at present as much more testing needs to be done. All I am doing is passing on the first results as they come in. I don't know what would happen as the animals get over 400+ pound class, but I do know the penetration of even the 240/250 class bullets have been seriously underestimated. Even at velocity, with the 240/250 gr bullets we get complete side and quartering penetration. I do think though the 265 gr up "may" break bones better. The problem, I feel, is that not many actual tests have been made on living tissue and many "think" the 300 gr up bullets kill better.
In the Marlin 1894P, the Beartooth LBT 300 gr LMN DCG GC may prove the best though as one can maintain a good velocity. Here again, these are the first results coing down and until much more data is fed into the database no postive conclusions can be reached.
Best Regards, James

 

[changeling]

James, I received your email with attachment. However, for some reason I can't "view" your attachment or any other files!!! It has nothing to do with your file, I don't know whats going on. I'll send the form to you as soon as I figure out what the problem is with my system.
changeling