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Here's your warning-- Both are likely Damascus and doubtfully safe with smokeless powder. Having said that-- Those are full sidelock guns, the very best of Lefever. There are many different grades and options and represent really fine American doubles.
Give us from close-ups of the actions and stocks. Lefever bought fancy European walnut for some high grade guns and even the lower grades could be had with plain French instead of American Walnut.
 

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Give us from close-ups of the actions and stocks.
Again, add the thumbnail option on the photos, much more detail is available!!

P.S. Jack, There was a recent post where the strength and capability of Damascus barrels to handle standard loads was discussed at length, with several linked references from 'trusted authorities' based on extensive testing (by them). I, had a Damascus external hammer double in the late 60's that I shot for a couple of years (though not a lot of shooting) with 'low brass' shells without damage...maybe I was lucky(?).
 

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Yeah, I have my own story of an indestructible Damascus gun that entertained Boy Scouts. BUT, as a deputy and gunsmith, I've seen six fingers lost in four incidence of 'shooting granddad's old shotgun'. They're especially hard to see what's going to hurt you. I have one example that looks just like that new Winchester in another thread but of course without the rifling. Deep pits but narrow and 'jagged-edged'.
I bought a large batch of Lefevers in Colorado. Some higher grade (gold inlay) guns were beautiful outside but et up in the bores. Fluid steel barrels with pitting can be examined and pretty well know what you have. The thousands of inches of heat-welded tubing joints can eat away the interior considerable distance from the initial entry point of chemically active fouling. I had an old hardware gun on display in Florida that had been found in a tree in the swamp. The cheap 'Twist steel' barrels had rusted away so light shown through the sides in several places and made it look like a crocheted curtain.
When I went to England and Scotland buying guns in '87 ('88?) I was surprised at how many Damascus guns were for sale with new proofs. By far the most common were old Damascus guns with new tubes 'mono-blocked' in. Extremely well done and gave new life to old guns too fine to not use. We bought about $85k of them in ten days.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If I shoot them I will get some brass casings and load with black powder. Will try to get some more pictures for you.
Gun auction tonight so might not get done tonight. Will probably contact the Lefever Arms Collectors.
.
 

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Great shotguns. I have an F Grade in 10 gauge circa 1886. One of the guys from the Lefever Collectors group says you can safely shoot smokeless if pressures are below 7000 PSI. Some others say 8000. I've only shot my black powder handloads out of mine.

I believe Lefever was the first American made hammerless shotgun. I really like them.
 

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A big part of my gunshop business in Colorado was supplying display guns to the ski area jillionaires. I bought an entire Lefever collection that had a bunch of old parts guns and broken stocked guns that kept me busy for months. I've sold some fine Damascus guns I sure wish I had back!! As a kid the Damascus warning was such that Damascus guns were really cheap. I started building barn wood shadow boxes for them at 16 and sold them to a big flower and decoration shop that catered to quail plantation jillionairs.

I've shot 3-1 1/8 trap loads in Damascus guns with shiny bores and tight breechs for many years. I like the old 8000 limit.
I had a 10 Ga Manhattan Arms (JP Sauer) sidelock hammerless Damascus that I carried guiding goose hunters. They got a big kick out of the plume of FFg smoke with a dead goose on top.
I owned (for about four hours) a single shot target rifle with Damascus barrels that read (German) who it was made for.....as part of the octagon barrel shank! It was worth a nice car when I bought it and worth a nice car pulling a travel trailer when it was sold later that day.
 

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I had a Daly double with Prussian Damascus barrels years ago. It had the 2 3/4” chambers and some beautiful but very soft wood on it.
I can’t recall whether the fever had 2 1/2 inch chambers or 2 3/4 inch. But I do know that the forcing cones rather short increasing felt recoil and pressure slightly.

I loaded and shot that gun with 7000 to 8000 psi loads without any issues whatsoever.

Fun gun.
 
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