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I posted a while back about a contender barrel I had purchased and didn't want. The barrel was a 10" blued 10mm auto. I was looking to trade for a 30-30 or 45-70 barrel. Well, my wish came true. I traded it for a beautiful 16" 45-70 with muzzle tamer! I have wanted one for a long time, and can't wait to try it out!!
 

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Congratulations! You can't go wrong with a 45-70 in my opinion. Good shooter that will drop anything on the continent.
One of the most flexible rounds out there and they've been using it for something like 145 years. Now that's a track record. Not sure where you are going to want to be with your loads with that short of a barrel but half the fun is finding the right powder and load to make it shine.
Not to throw a wet towel on the celebration but is that 16" with the muzzle tamer? I think you are right on the line where anything shorter has to have a handgun grip and anything longer has to be a rifle. That would include the muzzle tamer. If I'm wrong ten people will correct me. I'm not sure about if it's exactly 16"? Is it legal either way you want it?
 

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If the barrel is longer than 16" you can attach a buttstock and shoot it as a carbine, but you don't have to...you can leave the pistol grip on and shoot it that way. For my personal recoil tolerance, if it's legal to attach the buttstock, I'm going to, for several reasons.
 

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Handguns can have any barrel lenght from none to the moon, as long as it still only has a pistol grip. The Contender is one of the few guns you can put a butt stock on after you install the long barrel. If the gun was bought with a long barrel (over 16") and registered as a rifle, then you can not put a pistol barrel on it (unless you pay special taxes to ATF). Gutpile65 congrats on finding your long overdue 45-70!

CD
 

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I'm Tryin'.....

.....to get this right.

To CD ---> Are you saying that.... say you buy a Encore Pro Hunter "rifle". It comes with a rifle stock,fore end,and a 28" bbl. If I were to take THAT frame,attach a pistol grip(as in made for pistols) to it,and attach a 14" bbl,it would be illegal ?? -----pruhdlr
 

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Here is another good application for paper patched cast bullets. Buffalo Arms has a nice 430 grain mold for paper patching as well as the template and nitrated paper to make the patches with.
 

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Bottom line is what ever was recorded at the T/C factory for the serial number (pistol or rifle) that's what BATF considers that frame from now to eternity. Rifle frame you can only do rifle things with the frame but the pistol frame makes it universal. That's why its best to check the serial number with T/C to find out what it was recorded as before leaving the factory. Although BATF hasn't decided yet to enforce this minor technically I expect it will be at some point.
 

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.....to get this right.

To CD ---> Are you saying that.... say you buy a Encore Pro Hunter "rifle". It comes with a rifle stock,fore end,and a 28" bbl. If I were to take THAT frame,attach a pistol grip(as in made for pistols) to it,and attach a 14" bbl,it would be illegal ?? -----pruhdlr
Yes, that is exactly correct. To be "safe" many guys insist on buying their Encore as a pistol, in its original configuration, to stay within the letter of the law. Truth be told, even the BATFE aren't out to get you and your 28" barrel with a pistol grip....they're more concerned about a 14" barrel with a buttstock. Why either should concern them when you're talking about a SINGLE SHOT ACTION...is completely beyond me...but, there it is.
 

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Differance Of Opinion

Respectfully disagree --->
I would respectfully disagree with the above posts(#4 and #7)re the T/C and its hardware.

I believe that a ruleing has come out that states the T/C(Contender,G2,Encore)can be transformed into both rifle and pistol by the swap of the stocks,fore ends,and bbls. The way that I have heard the ruleing is that you can take ANY frame,that came from the factory ANY way, and attach the bbl of your choice to it. BUT....if you attach a bbl less than 16 inches it MUST have a pistol grip(as in made for pistols)attached. And,you can swap back and forth as much as you want as long as the above is observed.

Back when I had my FFL,before letting it expire(the Klinton years)I ordered 3 T/C frames. They came to me as bare frames. These I have since made into one "pistol" and two "rifles".

I would also add,the above is strictly my belief as I understand it and having talked to a BATFE rep in the Pensacola area. I am NOT advocating other people doing this. I feel that my interpretation of the law is right. Lets all remember that to be prosecuted for breaking a law,the prosecutor has to show intent. Did you intend to make a SBR ??

Ultimately,each one of us is responsible for there own actions. -----pruhdlr
 

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Pruhdlr,

The only documentation I have ever seen pertaining to the legality of this topic came from Mike Bellm and has been confirmed by at least two others. It was the SCOTUS ruling that reiterated a barrel shorter than 16" is not to have a buttstock installed, but it also went on to spell out that converting a rifle into a pistol is against the law. The literal interpretation is that a gun originally sold as a rifle is not to be made into a pistol. Have you seen an actual write-up that supersedes that ruling?

Let's keep in mind that all of these laws were written with semi-automatic actions in mind and that, to the best of my knowledge, no owner of a T/C single-shot action has been prosecuted for a SBR violation in the ~40 years these have been around.

And while we drone on about the legalities, poor Gutpile has seen his thread get way off course! Do you plan to shoot your 16" barreled 45/70 as a pistol or a rifle? (Hopefully he replies back to this thread, so we hear about how it shoots!)
 

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broom_jm, I have read about this delima on another forum or two. I do not have any hard documentation to prove either "theory" re. the T/C frames/bbls combination.

I do know that T/C frames are sold separately to this day. How that effects T/C or the end user is debatable. I'm sure that we would all agree that the combo of a <16" bbl and a shoulder stock is a no-no.

The mear fact that a T/C is sold as a pistol or rifle should(IMO)not have any effect on what it is turned into by the end user. The T/C system is a one of a kind thing. To me the main question is this ---> no matter how you buy a T/C or what the package sez,if you take ANY T/C frame and put a <16 inch bbl on it,will you/could you still have a SBR ??

I have personally done this and seen it done tons of times. However that still does not make it right. I would be very surprised to find any prosecutor to take a case like this to a jury. And,even more,would I be surprised to see any jury convict.

To me,at some point,common sense would surely prevail. ----pruhdlr
 

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Pruhdir,

Did you mean this to be part of another thread? Easy to address someone directly by PM, but hard to do it by posting in General since they might not happen to read it?

Use the advanced search. Someone within the last year, I think, had direct links to the applicable BATFE rules on this. I expect we could find them ourselves with a little work. It's just the definition of rifles and handguns, and I don't recall that section was very long.

In your post above, I think you meant <16" rather than 16"+?
 

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My post

I started a new thread in General Discussion so as to not further hijack Gutpile65's thread. I also wanted to directly answer broom_jm's question to me. If I did wrong...?....sorry.

If there is a "direct link to the applicable BATFE rules",I sure would like to see it. I have never seen(to the best of my knowledge) anything that addresses this particular problem. The T/C situation is very unique and I have felt for a long time that BATFE has "officially" danced around this ruling for some time now.

Again, "intent" is the magic word here. As in .....did you intend to brake the law ?? -----pruhdlr
 

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I have seen the BATF ruling on another forum. It does not make a distinction between how a frame is originally sold. This directly from T/C.

I have a 16" 450 Marlin barrel with Muzzle tamer. Very nice, accurate setup. Enjoy. Can be loaded to any level you want to tolerate. I like the 405gr spire point Saeco bullet.

Don
 

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Pru,

I've never known an officer who won't give me a speeding ticket, just because I didn't "intend" to go 80 in a 65. :)

Anyway, here is a link to Mike Bellm's website. Scroll down and you'll see a faxed copy/image thingy of a letter from the BATF concerning the legality of converting a "rifle" into a "pistol". Note that in this (strictest?) interpretation, even converting a gun originally sold as a pistol, into a rifle, and then back into a pistol... is against the law!

Now, I agree with you completely that there is little likelihood of this ever being brought before the court again, as the matter has been settled. Also, let's understand the history a little bit: These are not sawed off BAR's hidden under trench coats. These are single-shot weapons that no self-respecting (?!?) criminal would spend the money for, let alone use in a crime or act of violence. In fact, if the anti's could restrict everyone to such weapons, they would do so in a heartbeat, but that would just be their first step, as we all know.

http://bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239
 

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I think all the defense lawyer would need is two pictures of identical T/C with the only thing to differentiate them was one was a pistol serial number, and one was a rifle serial number, one being "legal" and one being "illegal"

Doubt there would ever be a defense lawyer though cause its not illegal :D
 

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If memory serves and its been around four or five years since researching this topic, the T/C court decision was about a very narrow topic which was ruled in T/C's favor. However the broader view is similar to that of automatic weapons i.e. once a machine gun always a machine gun. Another words if a receiver was originally made for use in a fully automatic weapon then its use in a semi-automatic weapon will still make that weapon considered automatic. Recently in last several years there was a recall of Romainian PSL rifles (believe that was make/model) where a full automatic receiver was welded and redrilled for semi-auto use. BATF stepped in and the importer had to contact all owners, return rifles to them and they returned new different rifles with the correct semi-auto receiver. The reasoning was once a fully automatic always a fully automatic. That type of reasoning with the BATF would most definately bleed over into this arena.

Bigfoot how do you suppose T/C would respond to such a question knowing if it was answered truthfully it would affect sales. What people need to do is ask themselves "does this individual/business benefit from doing this whether its legal or not". You will be the one in prision or spending you dollars for legal consuel not them.

One other point that hasn't been covered is a frame that leaves the factory where neither pistol or rifle configuration was entered. Whatever barrel is first installed on that frame makes it that type of firearm. Another words a pistol barrel it becomes a pistol or vice versa.

Don't remember the original source for this discussion but do remember that it centered around one or two individuals who had sent extensive letters to BATF asking for clearification on various legalities concerning existing BATF rules and regulations. Seems some information also came from Mike Bellums site but not 100% on that. Do remember it took several days of spare time wading through all the information before I made my decision. Believe from the tone of my responses it leaves no doubt in minds as to my position on this topic. You are free to make your own choice.
 

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as up Kittert TP a while back and was looking at the 50 cal bp tc.. Was told I couldnot buy as an out of stater because it COULD be made into a pistol.. Made no offer of shipping to my ffl either. That tells me that unless it's the OLD carbine only it would be classed as a pistol. My ffl tells me that he can't get them for Mass. And I could be wrong My wife says I always am
 
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